General African Cichlid Hybrid Discussion

[Ron]

So, the hobby's concern is maintaining the blood lines and appearance of the fish as close to what it would be in the wild.  Is that a correct assumption?

It depends. On one end of the spectrum you've got some that enjoy the hobby and their concern would be pretty fish in a glass box that needs the water topped off as it evaporates. On the other end you've got people who are very serious about the care and preservation of species. If you took either the average or the median, I think you'd fall in like with your assumption and the more people know, the more they start to care about the finer points or the larger picture.

As Dan eluded to, there are cichlid species going extinct in Africa. Most are probably most familiar with the Nile Perch and the problems it created in Lake Victoria after being introduced as a food source. That's not the only problem. In many lakes, including Lake Malawi and Lake Tanganyika there are problems that stem from a variety of reasons ranging from development to overfishing (both to eat and for our hobby).

One great awareness effort has come in the form of the C.A.R.E.S. (Conservation, Awareness, Recognition, Encouragement, and Support) Preservation Program. http://www.carespreservation.com/

Through the efforts of many, they've been trying to keep a tab on the status of wild cichlid populations and maintain a list of those that are anywhere between "vulnerable" to extinction all the way up to and including "extinct in the wild". Here's the list:
http://www.carespreservation.com/priority_list.html

Depending on how long you've been involved in the hobby, some of those might seem odd to appear on the list, as they are or at least were, common place in the hobby in recent years. Here's what I recognize at a glance from the list that I've seen come through our MCA auctions in the last ~5 years or so....

Astatotilapia latifasciata
Astatotilapia sp. 'thick skin'
Aulonocara kandeense
Aulonocara maylandi
Aulonocara sp. 'lwanda'
Cyrtocara moorii
Copadichromis mloto
Copadichromis sp. 'firecrest mloto'
Haplochromis sp. ‘kenya gold’
Harpagochromis sp. ‘golden duck’
Melanochromis chipokae
Paratilapia polleni
Placidochromis phenochilus
Protomelas sp. 'mbenji thick-lip'
Protomelas sp. 'steveni taiwan'
Pseudotropheus demasoni
Pseudotropheus saulosi

I'm sure I missed, some, but man that is a lot of different species that we can find in captivity, but are on the downfall in the wild.

When species are threatened to go extinct or have gone extinct in the wild, preserving the species through captive breeding programs is often the only way to attempt repopulation. So what happens if we've muddied the gene pool through poor breeding practices or acceptance of creating hybridizing species?

[PowerCerg One]

I think of this like cars for some reason. What if you came into money and were finally able to buy a Ferrari? When driving it home, you realize the engine is from an impala and the seats are from the back seat of a pickup. It looks nice and the dealer doesn't understand your problem. Kinda silly I know, but think about it.

[Mission Man]

Points well taken.  But isn't there a "happy median" within the hobby.  I currently have 95% of my tanks as species tanks, but I also have a few with hybrids.  Hybrids are not only "selectively bred" at the hands of man, but they also occur in the wild and many scientists feel that this interbreeding is due to the overlapping of the two species' geographic regions.  This can be caused by circumstance from a flood washing a fish over the bank and into another body of water to a bird finding a fish for a meal and then while flying several miles away, it loses its hold and the fish is lucky enough to fall into another body of water.  But in nature and the aquarium, most hybrid offspring are sterile: structural differences between the chromosomes inherited from each parent often make it impossible for them to produce viable eggs or sperm.

While in total agreement that preservation is imperative to the reintroduction of endangered species into the wild, with that said, then why are albinos kept and selectively bred?  I know, I know.  It's different.  One is a hybrid and one is a genetic mutation, but both occur in the wild and in the aquarium.  And even though these mutations occur naturally, these fish are often quickly killed by predators. But some within the hobby and within the MCA, selectively breed fish for the albino mutation and then sell these at auction, but will kill fry if they are suspected of being hybrids.   So, it seems like a double standard to me.

[lilscoots]

Points well taken.  But isn't there a "happy median" within the hobby.  I currently have 95% of my tanks as species tanks, but I also have a few with hybrids.  Hybrids are not only "selectively bred" at the hands of man, but they also occur in the wild and many scientists feel that this interbreeding is due to the overlapping of the two species' geographic regions.  This can be caused by circumstance from a flood washing a fish over the bank and into another body of water to a bird finding a fish for a meal and then while flying several miles away, it loses its hold and the fish is lucky enough to fall into another body of water.  But in nature and the aquarium, most hybrid offspring are sterile: structural differences between the chromosomes inherited from each parent often make it impossible for them to produce viable eggs or sperm.

While in total agreement that preservation is imperative to the reintroduction of endangered species into the wild, with that said, then why are albinos kept and selectively bred?  I know, I know.  It's different.  One is a hybrid and one is a genetic mutation, but both occur in the wild and in the aquarium.  And even though these mutations occur naturally, these fish are often quickly killed by predators. But some within the hobby and within the MCA, selectively breed fish for the albino mutation and then sell these at auction, but will kill fry if they are suspected of being hybrids.   So, it seems like a double standard to me.

That part in red is false with most african Cichlids - the mouth brooders at least. 

as for the second question - I'm not big on Albinos but the ones that are actually from an individual of the species (not bred in from another species like the OB coloration was) are still the same species with a non or mal-functioning gene(s) for color production. 

For malawi cichlid people, most of us enjoy them for two main reasons: behavior and color, and finding a rare color morph (albino, hypo-melanism, OB) really excites some people.  I think they look hideous personally, I don't care for the line bred fish either (german reds and the like).  I much prefer the look of the fish as they look in the lake, there are some beautiful fish in that lake.

[PowerCerg One]

Points well taken.  But isn't there a "happy median" within the hobby.  I currently have 95% of my tanks as species tanks, but I also have a few with hybrids.  Hybrids are not only "selectively bred" at the hands of man, but they also occur in the wild and many scientists feel that this interbreeding is due to the overlapping of the two species' geographic regions.  This can be caused by circumstance from a flood washing a fish over the bank and into another body of water to a bird finding a fish for a meal and then while flying several miles away, it loses its hold and the fish is lucky enough to fall into another body of water.  But in nature and the aquarium, most hybrid offspring are sterile: structural differences between the chromosomes inherited from each parent often make it impossible for them to produce viable eggs or sperm.

While in total agreement that preservation is imperative to the reintroduction of endangered species into the wild, with that said, then why are albinos kept and selectively bred?  I know, I know.  It's different.  One is a hybrid and one is a genetic mutation, but both occur in the wild and in the aquarium.  And even though these mutations occur naturally, these fish are often quickly killed by predators. But some within the hobby and within the MCA, selectively breed fish for the albino mutation and then sell these at auction, but will kill fry if they are suspected of being hybrids.   So, it seems like a double standard to me.

That part in red is false with most african Cichlids - the mouth brooders at least. 

as for the second question - I'm not big on Albinos but the ones that are actually from an individual of the species (not bred in from another species like the OB coloration was) are still the same species with a non or mal-functioning gene(s) for color production. 

For malawi cichlid people, most of us enjoy them for two main reasons: behavior and color, and finding a rare color morph (albino, hypo-melanism, OB) really excites some people.  I think they look hideous personally, I don't care for the line bred fish either (german reds and the like).  I much prefer the look of the fish as they look in the lake, there are some beautiful fish in that lake.

I agree. There is something beautiful about the results of millions of years of evolution bringing us these fantastic looking creatures. I see no reason to search for "ideal" traits.

[Mission Man]

Points well taken.  But isn't there a "happy median" within the hobby.  I currently have 95% of my tanks as species tanks, but I also have a few with hybrids.  Hybrids are not only "selectively bred" at the hands of man, but they also occur in the wild and many scientists feel that this interbreeding is due to the overlapping of the two species' geographic regions.  This can be caused by circumstance from a flood washing a fish over the bank and into another body of water to a bird finding a fish for a meal and then while flying several miles away, it loses its hold and the fish is lucky enough to fall into another body of water.  But in nature and the aquarium, most hybrid offspring are sterile: structural differences between the chromosomes inherited from each parent often make it impossible for them to produce viable eggs or sperm.

While in total agreement that preservation is imperative to the reintroduction of endangered species into the wild, with that said, then why are albinos kept and selectively bred?  I know, I know.  It's different.  One is a hybrid and one is a genetic mutation, but both occur in the wild and in the aquarium.  And even though these mutations occur naturally, these fish are often quickly killed by predators. But some within the hobby and within the MCA, selectively breed fish for the albino mutation and then sell these at auction, but will kill fry if they are suspected of being hybrids.   So, it seems like a double standard to me.

That part in red is false with most african Cichlids - the mouth brooders at least. 

as for the second question - I'm not big on Albinos but the ones that are actually from an individual of the species (not bred in from another species like the OB coloration was) are still the same species with a non or mal-functioning gene(s) for color production. 

For malawi cichlid people, most of us enjoy them for two main reasons: behavior and color, and finding a rare color morph (albino, hypo-melanism, OB) really excites some people.  I think they look hideous personally, I don't care for the line bred fish either (german reds and the like).  I much prefer the look of the fish as they look in the lake, there are some beautiful fish in that lake.

I agree. There is something beautiful about the results of millions of years of evolution bringing us these fantastic looking creatures. I see no reason to search for "ideal" traits.

Then if there is no median within the hobby, then ban all hybrids, albinos, and all other "selectively bred" individuals from the auctions and the hobby.  OR  let's take a breath and realize there are two parts to this hobby;  the conservationist side (which is a very high priority) and those that still love just watching the fish.

As a famous philosopher recently said, "Why can't we all just get along?" 

[djlamonica]

Here is a major problem last year there was some one searching for frontosa of any collection point they didn't care they just wanted a breeding group to sell as just frontosa.  That's a major issue.  There is already this thing happening with one of my favorite types of fish.  Metriclima where there all just labled zebra and they interbreed and mush together and people sell and purchases them as just zebra cichlids.  That's bad.

[PowerCerg One]

Points well taken.  But isn't there a "happy median" within the hobby.  I currently have 95% of my tanks as species tanks, but I also have a few with hybrids.  Hybrids are not only "selectively bred" at the hands of man, but they also occur in the wild and many scientists feel that this interbreeding is due to the overlapping of the two species' geographic regions.  This can be caused by circumstance from a flood washing a fish over the bank and into another body of water to a bird finding a fish for a meal and then while flying several miles away, it loses its hold and the fish is lucky enough to fall into another body of water.  But in nature and the aquarium, most hybrid offspring are sterile: structural differences between the chromosomes inherited from each parent often make it impossible for them to produce viable eggs or sperm.

While in total agreement that preservation is imperative to the reintroduction of endangered species into the wild, with that said, then why are albinos kept and selectively bred?  I know, I know.  It's different.  One is a hybrid and one is a genetic mutation, but both occur in the wild and in the aquarium.  And even though these mutations occur naturally, these fish are often quickly killed by predators. But some within the hobby and within the MCA, selectively breed fish for the albino mutation and then sell these at auction, but will kill fry if they are suspected of being hybrids.   So, it seems like a double standard to me.

That part in red is false with most african Cichlids - the mouth brooders at least. 

as for the second question - I'm not big on Albinos but the ones that are actually from an individual of the species (not bred in from another species like the OB coloration was) are still the same species with a non or mal-functioning gene(s) for color production. 

For malawi cichlid people, most of us enjoy them for two main reasons: behavior and color, and finding a rare color morph (albino, hypo-melanism, OB) really excites some people.  I think they look hideous personally, I don't care for the line bred fish either (german reds and the like).  I much prefer the look of the fish as they look in the lake, there are some beautiful fish in that lake.

I agree. There is something beautiful about the results of millions of years of evolution bringing us these fantastic looking creatures. I see no reason to search for "ideal" traits.

Then if there is no median within the hobby, then ban all hybrids, albinos, and all other "selectively bred" individuals from the auctions and the hobby.  OR  let's take a breath and realize there are two parts to this hobby;  the conservationist side (which is a very high priority) and those that still love just watching the fish.

As a famous philosopher recently said, "Why can't we all just get along?" 

We can't all get along because the ideals are, for the most part, mutually exclusive. As Dan said those who don't care will ruin it for those who do. That's why we proselytize. I don't mind fish keeping and the like, it's the breeders intermixing and selling that bothers me.

[Stramn]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

[Marty]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

If you put up the money, I'd be more than happy to.....

[danielratti]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

Are you trying to say that they are the same fish? So for example you had "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type Kande" and "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type north what would the fry be if they are the same fish like you are trying to say?

ive noticed there are 3 kinds of people who keep cichlids. Ones that keep it pure. Ones who are clueless then end up with hybrids and then try to distrubite them and still cannot figure out why hybrids are not cool. Then there are the really clueless ones who mix everything they thinks cool together and then end up with a ton of dead fish and one left.

[rcombs]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

Are you trying to say that they are the same fish? So for example you had "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type Kande" and "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type north what would the fry be if they are the same fish like you are trying to say?

ive noticed there are 3 kinds of people who keep cichlids. Ones that keep it pure. Ones who are clueless then end up with hybrids and then try to distrubite them and still cannot figure out why hybrids are not cool. Then there are the really clueless ones who mix everything they thinks cool together and then end up with a ton of dead fish and one left.

Those who do not care about keeping the strain pure should keep different fish, or strictly males. I want to know what I am getting when I purchase a fish. If I wanted a surprise I would buy a box of cracker jacks.

[linuxrulesusa]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

Are you trying to say that they are the same fish? So for example you had "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type Kande" and "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type north what would the fry be if they are the same fish like you are trying to say?

ive noticed there are 3 kinds of people who keep cichlids. Ones that keep it pure. Ones who are clueless then end up with hybrids and then try to distrubite them and still cannot figure out why hybrids are not cool. Then there are the really clueless ones who mix everything they thinks cool together and then end up with a ton of dead fish and one left.

I agree with you but don't you think we still have to distinguish between true hybrids and mixing of locations?

E,g. throwing a lot of different mbuna species together and letting them interbreed = hybrids. 

Mixing locations is not a true hybridization but is still not cool, like people who keep all the varieties of frontosa together, because there are clear visual differences, regardless of underlying genetics.

Ideally, people would not mix species (that can/do interbreed) or locations (of the same species). 

[PowerCerg One]

Run a DNA test on two cichlids of the same species but different collection points... Show me differences 4 miles in a lake make
 on the genetic level

Are you trying to say that they are the same fish? So for example you had "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type Kande" and "Aulonocara" sp. "Chitande Type north what would the fry be if they are the same fish like you are trying to say?

ive noticed there are 3 kinds of people who keep cichlids. Ones that keep it pure. Ones who are clueless then end up with hybrids and then try to distrubite them and still cannot figure out why hybrids are not cool. Then there are the really clueless ones who mix everything they thinks cool together and then end up with a ton of dead fish and one left.

I agree with you but don't you think we still have to distinguish between true hybrids and mixing of locations?

E,g. throwing a lot of different mbuna species together and letting them interbreed = hybrids. 

Mixing locations is not a true hybridization but is still not cool, like people who keep all the varieties of frontosa together, because there are clear visual differences, regardless of underlying genetics.

Ideally, people would not mix species (that can/do interbreed) or locations (of the same species).

Sure you can differentiate. That doesn't make it any less wrong or bad. Either way you are polluting a gene pool. It would still be considered a type of hybrid because the fish doesn't really have a true name if it isn't pure. You can't call it a Chitande Type North if it isn't pure Chitande Type North.

[Ron]

Mixing locations is not a true hybridization but is still not cool, like people who keep all the varieties of frontosa together, because there are clear visual differences, regardless of underlying genetics.

Ideally, people would not mix species (that can/do interbreed) or locations (of the same species).

I see it the same. While they are not truly hybrids, in the hobby is it should be viewed as such.

The thing about a particular population of a species existing in nature is that it sets a standard upon which we can judge. If you mix these standards, what you're left with is something that doesn't fit standards any longer.