Malawi tank disease?

[LoveTheFishies]

Should she stop feeding for a few days?  I know that is usually for bloat, but will feeding stressed fish worsen the problem?

[Marty]

I guess my question would be, if you're adding Quick Start then why are you continuing to do 25% water changes daily?  If this is because you are treating the tank with medication that makes sense.

If you're doing it to bring down your ammonia and nitrites, I suspect that you're doing more harm than good because you're likely not giving the beneficial bacteria time to establish itself in your tank.  When you pour the bacteria into the tank, it has to adhere to something like your filter media, decorations, gravel, etc.  If you're changing water every day, I believe you're disturbing that process (and likely removing some of the bacteria that's in the water column), so you have to keep adding bacteria cultures.  I don't know about Quick Start, but I know the TLC will cycle your aquarium in 24 hours.

[linuxrulesusa]

I guess my question would be, if you're adding Quick Start then why are you continuing to do 25% water changes daily?  If this is because you are treating the tank with medication that makes sense.

If you're doing it to bring down your ammonia and nitrites, I suspect that you're doing more harm than good because you're likely not giving the beneficial bacteria time to establish itself in your tank.  When you pour the bacteria into the tank, it has to adhere to something like your filter media, decorations, gravel, etc.  If you're changing water every day, I believe you're disturbing that process (and likely removing some of the bacteria that's in the water column), so you have to keep adding bacteria cultures.  I don't know about Quick Start, but I know the TLC will cycle your aquarium in 24 hours.

What has worked best for me on a brand new uncycled/mini-cycled (from a move) tank (where I didn't have other tanks to get good bacteria from) is the following.

1) Set up tank

2) Fill with water - I like using Prime to condition the water and neutralize ammonia, less slimey stuff vs. some other brands that have aloe and what not, also much cheaper

3) Start the filter running (power filter with plenty of biomedia, or else a good sized sponge filter)

4) Pour in the TLC Start Smart or Tetra Safe Start.

5) Do not add anything else, do not do water changes, do not test the water for a week.  The Prime and/or the bacteria culture can throw off the readings and then you interrupt the process by panicking and doing WCs etc
- Tetra SafeStart can have a brief ammonia and/or nitrite spike, ditto on the StartSmart, but it usually goes away fairly quickly. 
- It will not kill the fish to have a brief spike in those parameters, assuming they're healthy adults to begin with

6) Feed normally but sparingly during the week (e.g. don't' dump a ton of food in, but if the fish look like sunken bellies gradually increase the amount of food, what they'll eat in 30 seconds or so, and increase gradually from there as time goes on)

7) At the end of the week, test your water again (preferably with a liquid drop test kit like the Master API freshwater kit, since the test strips expire more quickly and are less accurate)

Fish and tank should be fine.  If your water parameters are way off still at the end of the week, wait a day and test again.


Final notes: Per the bottles, Safe Start or StartSmart can be added periodically but you should not have to keep adding it.  Like Marty said, if you keep changing the water right after adding it you're wasting money on the stuff.

[African cichlid Keeper]

I guess my question would be, if you're adding Quick Start then why are you continuing to do 25% water changes daily?  If this is because you are treating the tank with medication that makes sense.

If you're doing it to bring down your ammonia and nitrites, I suspect that you're doing more harm than good because you're likely not giving the beneficial bacteria time to establish itself in your tank.  When you pour the bacteria into the tank, it has to adhere to something like your filter media, decorations, gravel, etc.  If you're changing water every day, I believe you're disturbing that process (and likely removing some of the bacteria that's in the water column), so you have to keep adding bacteria cultures.  I don't know about Quick Start, but I know the TLC will cycle your aquarium in 24 hours.

What has worked best for me on a brand new uncycled/mini-cycled (from a move) tank (where I didn't have other tanks to get good bacteria from) is the following.

1) Set up tank

2) Fill with water - I like using Prime to condition the water and neutralize ammonia, less slimey stuff vs. some other brands that have aloe and what not, also much cheaper

3) Start the filter running (power filter with plenty of biomedia, or else a good sized sponge filter)

4) Pour in the TLC Start Smart or Tetra Safe Start.

5) Do not add anything else, do not do water changes, do not test the water for a week.  The Prime and/or the bacteria culture can throw off the readings and then you interrupt the process by panicking and doing WCs etc
- Tetra SafeStart can have a brief ammonia and/or nitrite spike, ditto on the StartSmart, but it usually goes away fairly quickly. 
- It will not kill the fish to have a brief spike in those parameters, assuming they're healthy adults to begin with

6) Feed normally but sparingly during the week (e.g. don't' dump a ton of food in, but if the fish look like sunken bellies gradually increase the amount of food, what they'll eat in 30 seconds or so, and increase gradually from there as time goes on)

7) At the end of the week, test your water again (preferably with a liquid drop test kit like the Master API freshwater kit, since the test strips expire more quickly and are less accurate)

Fish and tank should be fine.  If your water parameters are way off still at the end of the week, wait a day and test again.


Final notes: Per the bottles, Safe Start or StartSmart can be added periodically but you should not have to keep adding it.  Like Marty said, if you keep changing the water right after adding it you're wasting money on the stuff.

^ I agree but I have never had to use Prime to condition the water.

[linuxrulesusa]

^ I agree but I have never had to use Prime to condition the water.

Sure.  It really depends on your water.  Maybe the water is better out your way.

When I'm cycling a tank, or in my SW reef tank(s), I always use Prime per my previous post because it's one less thing to stress out the fish. 

I don't recommend this per se, but I use Prime when I can smell the ammonia in the water coming out of the tap, or in a fry tank.  When I don't smell ammonia, or if I used Prime the last time, I don't typically use it.  When the city is flushing their system and using extra ammonia, e.g. around April (depending on your city), I use Prime every time I do a WC.

Another clarification - you have to have fish (or an ammonia source) when you add the bottled bacteria or it won't work.  So you can't just dump bottled bacteria into an empty tank and wait a week then add fish.  This is probably a given, but I thought I should be more specific.

[African cichlid Keeper]

^ I agree but I have never had to use Prime to condition the water.

Sure.  It really depends on your water.  Maybe the water is better out your way.
When I'm cycling a tank, or in my SW reef tank(s), I always use Prime per my previous post because it's one less thing to stress out the fish. 

I don't recommend this per se, but I use Prime when I can smell the ammonia in the water coming out of the tap, or in a fry tank.  When I don't smell ammonia, or if I used Prime the last time, I don't typically use it.  When the city is flushing their system and using extra ammonia, e.g. around April (depending on your city), I use Prime every time I do a WC.

Another clarification - you have to have fish (or an ammonia source) when you add the bottled bacteria or it won't work.  So you can't just dump bottled bacteria into an empty tank and wait a week then add fish.  This is probably a given, but I thought I should be more specific.

I don't have city water that why I don't use prime.  I have a water softener and I never have had nitrite spike in my water.

[Kaia]

I asked the guy at preuss if putting the quick start in would affect the reading, since I had done it an hour before taking the water and he said no? Also they recommended only 3 25 percent changes this week. So do I do it daily or 3 times this week? If it comes down to daily and feeding or less and not feeding I'd rather do daily. These fish were emaciated, and finally look like a good bulk are putting on some weight. 2 are severely emaciated and just look at the food. Feeding takes 15 minutes or so because I do small pinches until I've seen that most have eaten and they are slowing down in interest.

[Kaia]

Also as I understand it, stuff like safe start is really of no benefit at all once fish are in your tank because I read that the bacteria it puts in is the same that comes from fish. It's the initial bacteria that starts your cycle. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I read.

[Kaia]

I think I'm going to just stick with daily. Considering the fish are sick I don't think that they will handle nitrite and ammonia spikes very well. This way ammonia and nitrite can stay within tolerable levels Until I get a zero reading

[Marty]

Also as I understand it, stuff like safe start is really of no benefit at all once fish are in your tank because I read that the bacteria it puts in is the same that comes from fish. It's the initial bacteria that starts your cycle. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I read.

No, the bacteria are naturally occurring.  Ammonia is the thing that comes from your fish, which is broken down by the nitrifying/beneficial bacteria.  The purpose of the bacteria culture is to establish a bacteria colony in your tank much more quickly than would be naturally occurring, thereby cutting down the amount of time your water parameters will be less than optimal for your fish.

I would leave the water changes alone for a few days and watch your fish.  Test your water in a day or so, and see what your levels are at.  If your fish appear to be getting worse, then medicate.  At this point, it's a crap shoot which way they'll go.  They could just get better on their own, or they could take a turn for the worse.  The only problem with medications is that they are sometimes harsh on the fish, which is why I'm recommending that route.

If you do treat for internal parasites, you would probably want to treat with metronidazole, kanacyn, or praziquantel.  Metro and kanacyn are probably my two favorite go to medications. 

[Ron]

I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but skimmed it and saw this ...

Feeding takes 15 minutes or so because I do small pinches until I've seen that most have eaten and they are slowing down in interest.

Healthy fish are hungry fish. Feeding them is fun, but I'd try to stop short of the point at which they slow down in interest. A couple brief feedings a day is also typically healthier than a single large one.

[Kaia]

I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but skimmed it and saw this ...

Feeding takes 15 minutes or so because I do small pinches until I've seen that most have eaten and they are slowing down in interest.

Healthy fish are hungry fish. Feeding them is fun, but I'd try to stop short of the point at which they slow down in interest. A couple brief feedings a day is also typically healthier than a single large one.

Tank has probably 35 fish, if I limit feeding how would I ensure the less competitive get food also?

[linuxrulesusa]

I didn't have time to read the entire thread, but skimmed it and saw this ...

Feeding takes 15 minutes or so because I do small pinches until I've seen that most have eaten and they are slowing down in interest.

Healthy fish are hungry fish. Feeding them is fun, but I'd try to stop short of the point at which they slow down in interest. A couple brief feedings a day is also typically healthier than a single large one.

Tank has probably 35 fish, if I limit feeding how would I ensure the less competitive get food also?

I typically sprinkle food (e.g. NLS pellets or similar) at a couple of spots along the top of the tank so there's several opportunities/locations for fish to snag the food.  Also if you have a power filter and drop food in near the outtake of the filter, then it will disperse throughout the tank.

[Ron]

Tank has probably 35 fish, if I limit feeding how would I ensure the less competitive get food also?

I do as linuxrulesusa just posted, though a bit hidden in the quote - feed along the length of the tank (or 1/2 the length - depends on the fish and tank size IMO).

[Kaia]

I already to that.. Over 3/4 of the tank. They still bump and crash each other tryin to get food. I also try to be conscious about how much I put in at. Time otherwise it flies all over the tank. This tank is 125 but they will be moved to a 220 soon