discussion on crossing collection point/color varients

[kodyboy]

This thread is further discussion from another members classifieds post,  that was selling a "breeding group" consisting of 3 fish which were from three different collection points & all were of a different color variant  

They are just different color varieties like the various stuartgranti color forms.

[Regalblue]

They are just different color varieties like the various stuartgranti color forms.

That analogy makes it sound worse, Lol.   Let's take a Ngara,  flavesent & Red shoulder,  mix them all together & see what would be the result.

[kodyboy]

No. I meant the individual color variations within a single region like some ngara peacocks have more blue others more red etc.  So you could have a mostly blue ngara or a mostly red one or the standard in-between color scheme.
 

[Regalblue]

No!  Definitely not the same as that. Ngara is still a Ngara.  Lions Cove is NOT a Ruarwe.

 This hodgepodge mixing is why it's so difficult to find a true Red Devil, Convict,  or even a Texas Cichlid.   

[jcunningham0295]

It is very important as breeders that we make sure to keep collection points separate even if to the eye the fish look the same.  Also even more important if your breeding what at the time is an I described species.  It is important we take the upmost care to preserve the purity as much as possible.

[danielratti]

That's is a lot of what the issue is with these people wanting to try to make profit or a living off the hobby.  Either you are in it to enjoy it or not. You're dealing with living creatures here it's  not a thing to play backyard mad scientist with if you want to do that just make meth you'll make more money and have more fun doing it.

[kodyboy]

While true in that the yellow lions cove color is different than the ruware color they are not hybrids (different species ) they are just color morphs of the same species.   While obviously not true breeding lines cove or ruware they hold the genes to eventually produce a true strain if line bred over multiple generations. 
The reason I am getting them is for their genetics.  I am interested in how the orange, red and white color morphs transmit from parent to offspring.  These specimens are for my classroom and a genetics project for my classes. It will be interesting to see if two orange only produce orange and if two white only produce white offspring.  I doubt it is that simple but it is intriguing.

[Regalblue]

Scott, I had no idea that you were the one getting them, but that would ease my mind on what their future holds.  Your classroom is probably the perfect place for them. Out in the hobby & being sold/traded amongst fish keepers?  No. There's too many inexperienced &/or uneducated people who either don't care or do not research the fish they buy, before they're purchased.  I really don't mind if people play mad scientist, but don't pass them off as pure. 

So, answer this... How would you feel if In the future the Ichthyologists determine that the Ruarwe is a different species & you have spread the fry from this group all over Michigan?   Even one yellow fry getting traded in at a LFS & getting sold to Somebody for their breeding group, has mucked up the gene pool.  The fact that the trio is producing three different color fry is already a major red flag that something is not right.

 Then as auction chair, what am I supposed to do?  Ask every person if their labs came from So&So?  Before telling them if they can be allowed on the tables?   

[danielratti]

If they look off the me they are hybrids

[kodyboy]

I agree with you I would not say that they were pure I would point out what they origin is. 
I am the same I feel all fish should be properly labeled and that not doing so is what has caused a lot of issues in the hobby, especially with hybrids that don't look much different than one of the parent species.
I am especially interested to see if there is any way to tell a difference between a yellow lab that produces only yellow offspring and one that produces some other color.  It is probably not possible but you never know and that is what science is about. This breeding group could provide some very interesting and useful information.
I now have 11 species in my classroom that are being maintained for the CARES program:
P. saulosi, Haplochromis sp. ‘ruby’, Neochromis greenwoodi, Astatotilapia aeneocolor, Aulonocara jacobfreibergi lwanda, Neochromis entebbe, Astatotilapia brownae, Astatotilapia sp. 'thick skin', pseudotropheus demasoni, Xenotoca eiseni, and Pterapogon kauderni (not CARES but endangered anyway and our only marine).  I am picking up a 12th species Paralabidochromis chromogynos Zue Island this weekend:)
I am very committed to maintaining proper species lineage.  I am hoping to interest my students in doing the same.

[mibwb]

Scott, you are making a very noteworthy effort....keep it up and hopefully it passes to your students and sets an example for others to follow. I commend your efforts.

[kodyboy]

Thanks:) We have raised fish (mostly Africans) for years, but this year we have started to really focus on CARES species.  A few students each year end up setting up an aquarium, taking fish home, and really enjoying the hobby.   The students even learn science concepts too:)