One Tank To Rule Them All

[Mastiffman]

 WOW, sorry to hear. Maybe a PVC heater rack would be a better option. Wider spacing but shorter anchors to zip tie them only by the 1st 4" from the top of the heater. That way they will not be affected by the heat from the elements. Try 1" PVC ripped in half for the anchors and feet and put them back to back with Zip ties or brass machine screws and nuts. They won't affect water quality being so minute and have regular water changes

 Do you have any substrate in your tanks? Aragonite will time release carbonates and bi-carbonates in the water and allow for a stable Ph during an unexpected ammonia spike by absorbing the acids produces during the nitrogen cycle. Aragonite is also more efficient than pieces of lime and or crushed coral in the filter.

 

[Ron]

I briefly considered PVC, but it releases dioxins and other gases if it gets too hot. Now, I would suspect that it wouldn't get that hot within a sump wit the water flowing, but at the same time I don't think the plastic sump itself would get hot enough to melt either during normal conditions. On the basis of being concerned "just in case", I don't think PVC would be acceptable either. That was my thought at least.

The substrate is 100% PFS. I've considered adding a passive buffer to the sump, but since my pH is higher than necessary to begin with (for tank-raised fish), I haven't.

My biomedia volume far exceeds what is needed for the bioload on the tank. I have changed feeding methods over the last 9 months or so in order to help lesson the potential of any spikes. I went from feeding how I would normally (twice per day, what can be consumed quickly) to feeding a lot once per day (in order to insure all the fish would have a chance to eat), and now back to feeding 1-2 times per day a more modest amount with pellets of varying size so they all get something (loaches and catfish don't compete well with cichlids for larger pellets).

[Mastiffman]

 Gotcha. Yeah I'm sure making the PVC anchor points short and as close to the top of the heaters, you'd be good to go. And as far as the PFS, yeah that doesn't have any actual "buffering" capabilities. Good that Ph is at a nice level but the issue is when ammonia spikes happen. The cabonates and bi-carbonates are what do the work. The absorb the acids that make Ph swing dangerously. So if the acids are absorbed then it doesn't have a lethal effect on the fish. It's all about making buffer capacity and ensuring that the Ph doesn't change or at least only very little.

 You could make a refugium in your sump with aragonite sugar grain sand and plants. That would help too.

[Ron]

I know what you mean by keeping the PVC towards the top of the heaters, but I'm using Jager 300W heaters, so only about the upper 20% of the entire length is without heating coils.

I'll look into the aragonite for buffering. It definitely sounds like a good idea overall. The fish that are passing don't have bright red gills or appear to be gasping, so I'm not so sure it's ammonia to blame, but since I can't put a finger on the exact cause, I'll consider it still just in case.

I've thought about plants in the sump, but really didn't want to worry about lighting and my dog having access to the plants. As of right now, I do have 3 pothos plants suspended from above the tank, so my dog has absolutely no access to them, but they are growing slowly because someone (clowns?) keeps nipping off the roots that extend beyond the sponge they are planted in (so the roots have some protection, but only for a limited depth). I should post pics sometime - overall it worked out nice short of the fish eating the roots.

[Mastiffman]

Yeah I think you could make it work with the PVC. Just like Jager heater holders they come with. That length.

Okay, so no ammonia burn. That's good. What do their bodies look like? Bloated at all. Or something else?

 So you've actually seen them die? So they have a seizure like death, darting into things or do they just have rapid breathing or something and then they just stop and are dead?

 Where are you getting these fish from? Various places...

Sorry about all of the questions. Just probing for a solution I guess.

[Ron]

Yeah I think you could make it work with the PVC. Just like Jager heater holders they come with. That length.

The plastic holders they come with have suction cups to maintain position. Eventually those suction cups fail, so I didn't use them in the first place. If I attached PVC only to that portion, the weight of the heater will tip it downward so the end with the coil will touch the bottom. For the time being, I think the rocks under the heaters will be sufficient.

Instead I've considered the idea of making something similar to the aluminum radiator I had, but with copper. I haven't spent any time yet looking up if the copper might impact the loaches or cats at all.

Okay, so no ammonia burn. That's good. What do their bodies look like? Bloated at all. Or something else?

No bloat. No discoloration. Nothing visible in their mouth or on their gills (I've cut a few open to look better).

So you've actually seen them die? So they have a seizure like death, darting into things or do they just have rapid breathing or something and then they just stop and are dead?

I haven't seen it immediately upon death, but shortly before. They are just floating about (not actually at the top, but not swimming around a lot) without interest in much and then I find them upside down behind the rock work. They aren't slamming around the tank, shaking, etc.

Where are you getting these fish from? Various places...

The last time I got anything new was around the time of the ich outbreak. I've basically lost interest in getting anything since then from anyone that is larger than 2" (and haven't added anything to this tank). Since the ich (and even then i had quarantined for 3 weeks before transferring fish into the display tank), I have separate equipment (pumps, nets, hoses, etc) for the display tank from my fishroom.

Sorry about all of the questions. Just probing for a solution I guess.

I understand. I'm not exactly a novice and at the same time this isn't exactly easy to resolve. I've been quiet on comment because the basic responses everyone posts to online cichlid health issues has been considered. The water volume is too large to throw medications at. At the same time, recently things have been better overall than they had been. Hopefully removal of the aluminum has some appreciable impact.

[Mastiffman]

You have had a bacterial infection from another source going on. Definitely sounds like it. No real outward signs. They just die.

Here is what I'm thinking for your PVC Heater holder. The Long OVC feet would hold the heaters horizontal.

 Sorry it was just a quick sketch in windows paint. 

[Ron]

You have had a bacterial infection from another source going on. Definitely sounds like it. No real outward signs. They just die.

I considered that at one point, but really thought there should be more fish impacted at a time or some outward signs. IIRC, the medication cost to treat for gram negative and gram positive bacteria was around $300. I did manage to catch 1 multi and 1 O. tetraspilus which appeared to not be doing well on 2 separate occasions. I tried treating both in 20 gallon tanks with bacterial meds and the meds appeared to have no appreciable impact in their health. Both lasted around 1-2 weeks and passed.

Here is what I'm thinking for your PVC Heater holder. The Long OVC feet would hold the heaters horizontal.

 Sorry it was just a quick sketch in windows paint. 

That's not exactly what I had first imagined and looks like it'd work well. Thanks for the idea.

[Mastiffman]

potential gram positive then?

 I figured that seeing it would help you get, better, what I saying. Glad it helped! 

[Steve]

I hope it works out for ya Ron. I know how it is with a huge tank, my 265 gave me issues even though it was only 2 months. I had ich, death, nitrate and other issues which I chased. I hope you don't get discouraged because your tank is awesome.

[Kulasik]

you can also get led (fluorescent replacement) tubes in different lengths for about $15 per tube

[Ron]

It's been a while and I'm perhaps overdue for an update.

I've since moved to doing larger water changes on a slightly less frequent basis. In addition to draining the 150 gallon sump, I also drain the tank down 1/4-1/3 of the way every 2-3 weeks and things have been going well. Nitrates are lower overall, no more fish issues, and everyone is happy.

The fish are big, but still look small. My taiwan reef, tangerine tigers, and spilonotus are finally coloring up too. Overall, I'm pretty pleased.

I"d experimented with some vals planted in pots ... that didn't last a week, so not plants *in* this tank still. I also did some pothos quite a while back and the loaches will just not leave the roots alone, so they are growing, but really slowly because they have minimal roots. Tonight I tried zip-tieing some baskets used for propagating plants to the bottoms of the sponges they are planted int so they can grow a bit further without being eaten. We'll see how it turns out.





A flake frenzy! (feeding flake during the water change since it won't be suck into the overflow with the pump off).

^For scale, that's a 10"+ venustus. 

[Steve]

Glad to see ya update this Ron, tank and fish both are all looking great. Good to hear it's all working well for you now 

[Ron]

Thanks Steve. I'm not sure if you recognize him, but "4 spots", the clown with the non-standard marking in a couple of the photos above is one from the group I'd picked up from you. Between those and my original group, I've got 9 in there.

[Steve]

I thought it was. I remember a couple of the ones you got from me were pretty recognizable from the average clowns. And is that a Champ I see in there as well?