Michigan Cichlid Association
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on February 16, 2016, 01:47:16 PM
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I need your guy's help trying to figure out what is causing an issue in one of my tanks. I'll tryin' provide as much info as I can. First off I have lost 3 fish in the past 3 months in my 75g peacock & hap tank. The tank is 75g with an FX5 filter, about 15 fish, weekly water changes, Nitrate usually never gets over 40ppm before a WC. Diet/feeding use to be Plecocaine pellets and veggie styx, but I just recently switched over to mostly Ken's flakes (about 2 weeks ago made the switch). Mainly that is just to make sure this isn't a nutrition/bloat issue was the reason for the change.
This is the latest fish I lost this morning. I noticed she was breathing harder about 2 days ago and stopped eating. Also noticed a white "tuft" on her tail and side which just all the sudden showed up a couple days ago. Then just over night last night her belly was swollen this morning. She was in real bad shape so I had to put her down this morning. Here's a couple pics of her. The first two I lost a couple months ago had the same belly issue, but not the white tuft issue.
Does this seem like some sort of intestinal parasite issue? Bloat? Something else?
I just ordered some Metro off ebay a few mins ago to have on hand in case any other fish show signs soon. I think I may just treat the whole tank with metro when it gets here just to be on the safe side.
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for some reason the pics are not showing. Give me a few mins to reup them.
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(http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag470/stevewayneclark/fish1_zpstxi5caaf.jpg)
(http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag470/stevewayneclark/fish2_zpsixqpmn8r.jpg)
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Does the Plecocaine pellets have bloodworms in it. looked the food up but couldnt find what is in it.
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That I am not sure of if it does or not.
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The white tuffs would be more than likely columaris and it can kill in 24 hours. As from the weird issue with the stomach you would have to give more info about the parameters of your water
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Amm-0
Ni-0
Na- never gets over 40ppm (75% WC's every 7-9 days)
Ph- 7.8 after water change (out of tap PH) drops to about7.2 to 7.4 by the end of the 7-9 days before a WC
Temp - I keep it about 82F
Treatment- PRIME
No buffers or anything like that use
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Does the Plecocaine pellets have bloodworms in it. looked the food up but couldnt find what is in it.
Source: http://www.fishforums.com/forum/neptune-aquatics/26124-plecocaine.html
here is the complete breakdown of components and nutritional values..and , yes ; it does have a vitamin B-12 supplement.........
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
CRUDE PROTEIN (MIN) 50.0000%
CRUDE FAT (MIN) 17.0000%
CRUDE FIBER (MAX) 3.0000%
CALCIUM (CA) (MIN) 1.5500%
CALCIUM (CA) (MAX) 2.0500%
PHOSPHORUS (P) (MIN) 1.2500%
SODIUM (NA) (MIN) .0500%
SODIUM (NA) (MAX) .5000%
INGREDIENTS
FISH MEAL, WHEAT FLOUR, SPRAY DRIED ANIMAL BLOOD CELLS, FISH OIL, FISH OIL
(LS), BREWERS DRIED YEAST, BETAINE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, LECITHIN,
CHOLINE CHLORIDE, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE,
DL-METHIONINE, MENADIONE SODIUM BISULFITE COMPLEX, THIAMINE MONONITRATE,
BIOTIN, FOLIC ACID, CHOLECALCIFEROL, RIBOFLAVIN, DL-ALPHA TOCOPHERYL ACETATE,
VITAMIN A ACETATE, ETHOXYQUIN (A PRESERVATIVE), ZINC OXIDE, VITAMIN B-12
SUPPLEMENT, MANGANOUS OXIDE, FERROUS CARBONATE, COPPER SULFATE, ZINC SULFATE,
CALCIUM IODATE, CALCIUM CARBONATE, COBALT CARBONATE.
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Been looking for that but could not find it, thanks John.
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What? you think the cocaine is killing them?
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If they are still dying after he switched food I would think that would not be the issue. How often are you vacuuming your substrate and have you added any fish before this started?
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i found this site i hope it helps http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html
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The link posted above is a good one. I've used it before. That being said, I'll get to my question. Is there any way to keep your Nitrates under 20 ppm in between WC? After running into problems, I traced my issues back to Nitrates. Research suggests that prolonged exposure to even slightly higher nitrate levels can cause a fish's immune system to weaken. My problem started with weird random twitching (Edit: weird random head twitching with mouth closed) then progressed to a soar and then bloat. (So not EXACTLY the same as your issue.) Now, I've managed to keep the levels under 20 ppm (under 10 if I can help it) and my fish seem much healthier. Different websites post different numbers for what is an acceptable level. I'm still sorta new to Africans so it doesn't take much to make me over-worry. I might be way off base. Was just thinking it might help your fish's immune system keep diseases at bay.
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Steve, please provide a list of the fish in the tank? A phenomenon I found in all my tanks was the dominant fish will eventually murder all the rest of the fish in the tank over time. Not sure but those might be battle scars from aggression. I may be wrong on this but it is something I experienced in all my tanks....Especially my 180 all male show tank...I finally had to remove / sell the aggressor to slow down the killings... Another thing you can do is change around your decorations periodically. This will also help cut down territorial aggression as well.
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My problem started with weird random twitching then progressed to a soar and then bloat. (So not EXACTLY the same as your issue.) Now, I've managed to keep the levels under 20 ppm (under 10 if I can help it) and my fish seem much healthier
Actually that is one thing I have noticed myself and wondered about. I have in fact seen a couple of fish twitch their head oddly every once in a while. Not sure how else to get the Na down to under 20ppm because I already have an FX5 on a 75g tank, there's about 15 cichlids and 4 plecos plus one catfish in it so it's not really over stocked at all. And I vacuum the sand every water change.
I'll tryin put a list of stock up when I get a chance, but since I moved the bleekeri & zebra out a couple weeks ago there is pretty much zero aggression in that tank now.
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I'm not sure about the catfish but plecos produce a lot of waist from what I've seen. Mind you I only have 2 BN plecos now (one per tank) so I don't have a tons of experience with them.
I made a few changes that have helped. I thinned out the crushed coral substrate to about 2" so I could make sure that I was getting it clean, added 3 plants (and about to order 3 more), and stopped scrubbing my rock work with a brush and just let the BN Pleco clean them, re-homed the larger regular Pleco and 2 catfish (I realized that my Mbunas were overeating by stealing the catfish food at night, even though there wasn't much light), cut back on the amount of food per feedings, and started making sure that I didn't damage my good bacteria when I cleaned the FX5 once a month. I upped the WC to twice a week for 3 weeks before things stabilized. Not everything listed effects Nitrates though. So basicly plants, less poop, thinner substrate, and more WC till stable. I'm currently looking into a specific type of bioball that you can add to a canister filter that is supposed to help some too. Problem is that I forgot which one works with that high of water flow. I'll post it if I find it again.
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Steve, I know I answered the PM you sent me but I wanted to post it here in case someone else was having weird symptoms.
When observing for about 10 minutes I would not see any drastic symptoms and only 3 or 4 fish would act weird in that time. But one would shake it's head weird (NOT mating behavior), one would clamp it's fins and just hang out in place for a minute then snap out of it and go strait back to swimming, one would gently scrub it's self across the gravel a little. If I caught one specific fish acting weird, it might not act weird again for over half an hour. I also noticed that their poop was a lighter color (not white). The Nitrates were staying over 20 ppm but no higher than 40 ppm and I had read that was ok but not ideal. Then one fish ended up with a soar close to it's dorsal fin and few came down with bloat.
I QT'ed the ones with bloat and started Epson salt dips, Metro in the water, then 5 days of Metro soaked sinking pellets after they could eat (I know...over kill). As for the rest of the fish, I started soaking sinking pellets in Epson salt water to keep them pooping until I could get the water right and keep it stable (may not have been necessary but seemed like a good idea after reading a study on Epson salt & Hex). After the 3 weeks was up, they all seemed much healthier but I kept up the ES soaked pellets for an extra 2 weeks.
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I'm currently looking into a specific type of bioball that you can add to a canister filter that is supposed to help some too. Problem is that I forgot which one works with that high of water flow. I'll post it if I find it again.
Please post if you find these special bio balls...the only ones I know...bio pellets, bio pearls, NPX bioplastics.
I'm thinking of hooking up a bio reactor to everything.
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I was wrong, it's not bioballs, looks to be something similar to ceramics. Anyways, I'm researching a few things to add to a canister and should have a list by tomorrow night. I'll start a new thread so we can find out if anyone is using them, having success/failure, so we don't waist out time & money on the ones that don't deliver as promised.
I'm not sure I want to get a bio reactor, for lack of education/experience, but I might need one once my juveniles grow out (basicly half my tank).
I have read in several articles that there is no quick/easy fix if a person wants to keep their current stock (unless the cause is only over feeding and a "dirty tank"). I say that because the most common reasons are overstocked tank, too much waiste, over feeding, and not enough tank maintenance. From what I've read, you need to try a few tactics at once, and each one helps a little, but combined they offer noticeable help. A bio reactor might make a big difference but I have NO experience with them.
Have you considered re-homing 3 of the 4 plecos? Not sure what kind you have but I switched to a BN Pleco. It should stay under 6" and is the second best algae eater/rock cleaner out there (the best can't be homed with African cichlids). It sounds like your doing good tank maintenance. A big part of the problem might be your 4 super poopers...
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My 4 plecs are all Albino BNP males so they don't create as much waste as your normal plecos will. Once the 125g is up then I plan to move two of them into that so I can get them out of the 75g tank.
The ceramic balls you are talking about isn't Matrix media is it? That's what I run in my FX5.
Starting this week I'm switching from 7-9 days WC to straight 7days every Sunday. My filter Maintenance I usually do bi-monthly on my FX5 but I'm going to change that to monthly on this tank and see if those two changes make a difference.
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Yeah, Matrix was one of the ones I'm researching. And I would keep the BN Plecos too if your working on another tank.
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I found it Marine Pure Bio Media comes in balls, cubes, slabs, and blocks for Fresh and Salt water.
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greatwaveeng.com/shop/media/biohome-ultimate-media i have been using this for a few mounts now and it has made a big different's //www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYk5UXaRV94
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(http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag470/stevewayneclark/misc%20001_zps5s2tajco.jpg)
Made a little change today to it. After taking the canopy off to do a water change I noticed some mold on the underside of the canopy (smelled really bad as well) so I decided to change from the wood canopy covering an open top to some glass lids. I really don't know if mold could leech into and affect water quality or not? But figure better to eliminate every possibility that I can. Plus I like the sleeker look which now will show more of the 125g tank behind it once that's up and running.
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Plus you gain a shelf..
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Steve, i think you might have identified your culprit or at least part of it. I have a Fluval FX5 on my 125 and I do maintanace once a month. I've let it go to 6 weeks before and the Na seems to climb faster and stay a little higher after that point. But It's a 125 with 15 three to four inch fish and 20 smaller juvenile around two inches plus 1 juvenile BNP. And with my Mbunas sneaking the catfish food, I'm positive that they were over eating. So I'm pretty sure that bio-load is more than yours. Keep me posted! I want to know how this works out and if my theory was way off... Best of luck. PM me if I can help. I don't have tons of experience but I've read a LOT. 😂
Not trying to highjack Steve's thread but thanks Mibwb & Fisher 11 for posting on the filter media, I've been trying to find something that actually works as promised.
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Hit the tank with Metro 3 days ago, now today hit it with a 2nd dose. The fish are for sure feeling the Metro because they started shaking their heads and rubbing after adding it, but not sure yet if it is helping or not. Just going to keep an eye on them now for the next few days and if they still act weird I'll probably give a round of heat and salt and see what happens then. I am not sure the Nitrates are causing it to be honest. They never got over 40ppm before and now that I changed to easier to access glass lids I am able to spot vac the waste off the sand with my batt powered vac so now they are staying under 20ppm this week.
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Steve less food more water changes, cleaner tank. lol It sounds like normal aggression with mild problem of health issue. At the same time fish die sometimes for unknown reasons.
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It's not a water quality, feeding, or aggression issue I know that much for sure. I feed vary sparingly, very religious with my water changes, and there is next to zero aggression in that tank these days. Just to update this since it's been a couple weeks..... It was for sure some sort of bacterial/intestine parasite issue. I started hitting the tank with metro followed by API Gen cure and the fish that were showing issues do seem to be looking better now. I can't say 100% for sure but I think perhaps one of the fish I brought home from a recent auction may have introduced something into the tank and just did not show any signs of it for a couple months till recently if I had to guess.