Michigan Cichlid Association
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on September 10, 2014, 03:51:24 PM
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Well I'm reachin' out in hopes someone else here knows someone that can take apart and reseal big tanks. My 265g has been sitting for about a year since I started the build of it and the office in the basement and I'm too the point now where it either needs to be up and running, or I'm just gonna dispose of it and basically get out of the hobby for the most part and only keep one 55g with some fish in it.
I know theres that Dan guy Blair knows but to be honest that is becoming a dead end road trying to reach that guy now. He replied back to me last week and I missed his call over the weekend while I was out taking care of some storm damage and now for whatever reason I can not get him to even return a message. Phone calls, emails both go un replied too for whet ever reason. I contacted an aquarium service business in Rochester Hills which I thought might be a means to get someone there to come out and see if they can rebuild it but as my luck goes no dice there either.
I'm pretty much at the end of my rope here now with this to be honest. I was hoping to be able to get someone to get it up and running so I could get fish from the Oct fall auction but time is running out on that now and really my frustration level is running out at an even faster pace.
If anyone knows ANYONE that does tank rebuilding on larger tanks please let me know before I finally decide to throw in the towel and be done with this.
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Man Steve, I understand your frustration but keep the faith brother. Many of us are waiting patiently to see your talents expressed with that huge tank. Maybe it's possible that Dan is experiencing power outage issues and just hasn't been able to contact you?
And here's a way to look on the bright side...the winter auction will be right around the corner and usually is bigger/better and you'd have more choices ;)
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Messages were on his cell phone so doubt that's the issue.
Been tryin to keep the faith Tony, but at a certain point it goes from faith to futility, and I'm just about to the later at this point.
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Feed off of us for continued faith bud :). I'm making some calls to see if I can find someone to do the job. Let me ask you, will you be open to the possibility of having to get the tank moved to a facility if the option for in-home repair isn't available?
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Dan has always been tough to get a hold of. His kids & job keep him pretty busy, unless It's the slow time of year for his work.
If you find somebody let me know. We still have the aid for you No matter who does the work.
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I think in home is gonna be the only way. Mainly because it is so heavy that carrying out up the stairs, then finding a way to load and transport it then carry it back down the stairs would be next to impossible. Plus since I built the wall in front of it I really don't think it would fit through the doorway now to be honest.
There's room to work on it where it is, probably a good 10ft by 8ft area where it sits. And I can get my brother in law and Nephew plus myself to give someone a hand with the lifting and holding during the rebuild. I just need someone with experience/knowledge to head it up so I don't end up with leaks again.
So I can provide some muscle and help with the job as well as whatever the cost is. Just need to hire the knowledge most importantly. If you find someone let me know, you should have my # so just pass it along to them if you find someone.
Thanks Tony.
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Someone from a company I contacted today said Great Lakes Aquariums may do reseal jobs since they build tanks. I know I have heard that name here before so before I waste time contacting them figured I'd see if anyone here knows if they do that sort of thing or not?
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Someone from a company I contacted today said Great Lakes Aquariums may do reseal jobs since they build tanks. I know I have heard that name here before so before I waste time contacting them figured I'd see if anyone here knows if they do that sort of thing or not?
I am not sure, but I heard Steve is a good guy to deal with. Don't give up. Keep the faith. It will get there.
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If they do, you'll have to bring them the tank.
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If they do, you'll have to bring them the tank.
Figures. That rules them out then since I cant get it out of the basement.
Don't give up. Keep the faith. It will get there.
Been tryin' not too bud, but I've exhausted just about every lead I've had and they are all dead ends now it seems. I actually just checked and it's been longer than I thought it was that I've had it, I got the tank exactly 18 months ago. I'm seriously just at the end of my rope with this and think I'm just gonna call it quits I believe. When a hobby stops being fun and becomes just stress and let downs then it's just not worth it anymore.
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Well after doing a lot of thinking and searching tonight and research on how guys build & seal plywood aquariums it got me to thinking. Since I did an all 3D backgrounds on this tank with the entire back of the tank and both sides of the tank are all covered where you can't see them, plus the tank being built into the rock wall there's a 2" edge around the whole front viewing glass that is covered by the wall. So basically it's in essence the same as most plywood tanks are with only the front panel viewable, so there's no reason I can't treat it as a plywood tank.
Meaning this...I found this product which guys use for plywood tank building to seal seams to make plywood tanks watertight http://liquidrubber.ca/collections/frontpage/products/liquid-rubber-waterproof-sealant
They also have a tape you can put down before the coating to add even more insurance when you use it on glass http://liquidrubber.ca/collections/products-page/products/seam-tape
If I can't get anyone to seal this thing then I really have nothing to lose by trying this myself. At least then I'll have done absolutely everything I possibly could to get this darn thing up and running. Going to do a bit more research on it and if it seems like it might work then this may be last hurrah try at this tank before I call it quits.
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That's the spirit Steve! Just like fishing...."ah, just one more cast". ;)
I heard back from one of my contacts and he said almost all the companies that did this work gave up several years ago when their liability insurance went from $320 to $5000 per year.
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They also have a tape you can put down before the coating to add even more insurance when you use it on glass http://liquidrubber.ca/collections/products-page/products/seam-tape
Where did it specifically mention glass? I looked at the link and it mentioned a number of things, but glass wasn't one of them. I'd be worried that if you used it in a tank you'll have various air gaps between the tape and the seam. Personally, I'd rather have a solid bead with no air.
I've found with my car hobby, sometimes things go really poorly, but it's better to let things sit until you feel interested in working on them again. Put rods through the block - didn't drive it for over a year. 1-2 years after it was back on the road, what should have been a simple fuel upgrade turned into a full on redo - sat for a year, I've been working on it this year, and another snafu has led it probably not being driven until next spring. >:(
I get that there's a nagging reminder of an unfinished project, but unless you need money out of it or the space for something else, I'd take some time.
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Trust me I know all about just walking away and taking time from a project Ron As a car guy myself I've been working on my 69 GTO for 13 yrs now and still have probably a few more yrs to go on it, so patience is one thing I do have ;) But after 18 months and one failed reseal attempt already, and now finding out there is no one that will reseal it for me, I've basically run out of options now.
This is where they mention glass. Someone asks in the FAQ's about sealing the glass window on a plywood tank and they say the tape first then sealer is the best way. The section where they mention glass is right here at this link http://support.liquidrubber.ca/hc/en-us/articles/200473219-How-can-I-seal-glass-to-your-product
Check out the video of how they do the corner in this link with the tape then liquid rubber sealer, it's the 2nd video down http://liquidrubber.ca/collections/products-page/products/seam-tape now of course you want to try to avoid any air bubbles or gaps, but the thing I have found about this liquid rubber so far (from what I can find) is that it is much "tougher" than silicone. So as long as you have the tape in the corners and seam, then seal over it with the liquid sealer then even if you did have a small bubble or gap it wont leak. To be honest I actually think for someone like myself that is not experienced at siliconing huge tanks there is much more of a chance to have air/gaps in silicone than there is this stuff. For an experienced tank builder that may not be the case, but for someone that doesn't have that experience I believe this may be easier to get a good seal with. The fact that the liquid rubber is brushed on, is tougher, and can be applied a bit thicker seems like it may be the best option for me to get this thing watertight.
It's some pretty impressive stuff, check out this link where some guy tests making a cardboard box watertight with it (there's two follow up vids as well where it still hasn't leaked a week later) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmvqU_3qM64
BTW Ron, didn't know you were a car guy as well. What do you have you are working on?
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That's the spirit Steve! Just like fishing...."ah, just one more cast". ;)
I heard back from one of my contacts and he said almost all the companies that did this work gave up several years ago when their liability insurance went from $320 to $5000 per year.
I got the same thing from some of my contacts as well. Do you know exactly where the tank is leaking from?
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Not really. It's been about 6 months since it leaked and my memory sucks to begin with, but if I remember right I think it was low on the right front of the tank somewhere.
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Not really. It's been about 6 months since it leaked and my memory sucks to begin with, but if I remember right I think it was low on the right front of the tank somewhere.
Like where the bottom joins with one of the other panels? If so, I am just throwing this out there, is it in a spot you could remove the silicon and add a glass patch? Just a suggestion I was given by one of the tank building companies I talked to today.
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I think that's about where Josh but I honestly am not 100% sure. I remember it was mostly running down the right front corner of the tank when it was leaking, and I couldn't see any leak from up on the vertical edge of the corner at the time. Then again with it being built into the wall I couldn't get a real good look at that area at the time either so it's really hard to say for sure, but I think it was most likely from the bottom right front.
Then again you know how it is, it could be from somewhere else on the bottom but just running through the trim and finding it's way down the right side of the stand. So hard to say for sure.
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Get all the board members together. I've build tanks both glass and acrylic wish I could help but a little strapped for time right now.
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I'm gonna order the liquid rubber this weekend. Gonna give this a try, have nothing to lose and at best, maybe I will have found a way to help others that have a leaker. Will report back how this goes.
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Not sure if you've already ordered the rubber product, but I came across this and thought of your tank:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?545519-Tank-resealing-w-no-silicon-at-all-1700-Gallons
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Thanks Ron. I actually haven't ordered it yet because I was kicking around the idea of just trying to silicone it again myself and see what happened before I did the liquid rubber last resort attempt. I'll check out the link you posted more thoroughly this evening when I have more free time to read it all 8)
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Been doing some reading on that stuff Ron, so far I think it sounds like it might be even better than the other stuff I was going to get. Slightly higher priced but at this point as long as it works I'm not too worried about the price. Sounds like it is much more durable from the tensile strength tests and usages they are suggesting for it. Going to do a bit more googling/research on it still but I think I may go with that stuff instead of the original one I was looking at.
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My brief impression is that it was better as well for sealing nearly anything water tight.
The benefit using silicone is that it's possible to remove and redo. I don't think these other options will offer anything like that. Since you've got an elaborate background and have it setup in-wall, I don't think you need it to look pretty though ... just need it water tight.
If you do give the silicone route another shot, I'd get something "better" than what you'll commonly see recommended or will find at Home Depot or Lowes. I can't locate my bookmarks on the topic, but here is an example:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17362483&postcount=19
I've used GE 1 for a number of reseal jobs,, but I think a rather large tank would be better served with a higher strength silicone. Maybe it's no different, after all the depth of the water is what determines the water pressure on the sides largely, but spending a little more and waiting on shipping, to me would be worth the piece of mind with a couple hundred gallons of water being held back.
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Scs1000 is what a couple places that I know who make tanks use. So if you wanna give it a shot with that I'd say try that
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Hmmmm. I'm not worried about the price because like I said if it works then that's all that matters at this point. I'm just wondering what the difference could be though...isn't 100% silicone gonna be 100% silicon no matter who makes it? Just tryin to understand why one would be listed different than another if they are both 100% silicon.
EDIT- Found the answer to my own question. Some variances in tensile strength between different 100% silicone.
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Hang in there Steve..accomplishments come through perseverance.
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Hmmmm. I'm not worried about the price because like I said if it works then that's all that matters at this point. I'm just wondering what the difference could be though...isn't 100% silicone gonna be 100% silicon no matter who makes it? Just tryin to understand why one would be listed different than another if they are both 100% silicon.
EDIT- Found the answer to my own question. Some variances in tensile strength between different 100% silicone.
If you want the highly technical answer, I can start with saying that silicone is a polymer. this means that silicone can have different lengths of molecules (usually referred to as average molecular weight).
If I remember correctly, silicone is dimethyl siloxane. I had a lab class in college where we made this. Lower molecular weights made an awesome lubricant - slicker than snot (reference silicone lubricant sprays). Higher molecular weights had higher vicosity and would eventually become a solid......
This is from 20+ years ago.....may have mixed something up.
Bottom line, it is all called silicone, but you can drastically different material properties and out right behavior with different polymer chain lengths.
This is what i get for getting a degree in chemical engineering......
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Hmmmm. I'm not worried about the price because like I said if it works then that's all that matters at this point. I'm just wondering what the difference could be though...isn't 100% silicone gonna be 100% silicon no matter who makes it? Just tryin to understand why one would be listed different than another if they are both 100% silicon.
EDIT- Found the answer to my own question. Some variances in tensile strength between different 100% silicone.
If you want the highly technical answer, I can start with saying that silicone is a polymer. this means that silicone can have different lengths of molecules (usually referred to as average molecular weight).
If I remember correctly, silicone is dimethyl siloxane. I had a lab class in college where we made this. Lower molecular weights made an awesome lubricant - slicker than snot (reference silicone lubricant sprays). Higher molecular weights had higher vicosity and would eventually become a solid......
This is from 20+ years ago.....may have mixed something up.
Bottom line, it is all called silicone, but you can drastically different material properties and out right behavior with different polymer chain lengths.
This is what i get for getting a degree in chemical engineering......
Thanks always appreciate good info. I did a lot of searching (was up till about 6am last night lol) and one thing I found was most people saying the strongest is the scs1200 when it comes to sealers. Another thing I found most people say though when it came to tank building was the high tensile strength scs1200 is good for the primary seal/building the tank, but for the secondary seal high tensile strength sealer isn't needed since the secondary inner seal is not and actual "structural" seal and just a waterproofing seal.
Anyone have any thoughts on that? Like I said I don't mind spending the extra $45 on three tubes of the scs1200, but if it's not "needed" for the secondary seal then I don't want to just throw money away for no reason either.
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We, and a few of our customers, use american sealants aquarium silicone. I'm not a huge expert on silicone but from what i've read and heard, it is one of the strongest tensile strengths silicone out there that is safe for aquariums
http://www.americansealantsinc.com/wp-content/files_mf/asiaqsiliconepds76.pdf
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From a structural standpoint, the inner seal should need see a lot of stress. The silicone in the joints should be holding the glass together - thus the inner seal should see minimal or no tensile stress.
Theoretically, if the seams are completely siliconed, you should not need the inner silicone. We all know what theory is worth in the real world...you will probably have tiny gaps in the joints. Due to the pressure and stretching, the water will leak out. The inner seal is more robust in assuring no gaps - you can see it.
A belt and suspenders is a practical approach, especially in this size tank.
One thing I have read (for entertainment I looked at building a tank) is that you need to silicone all at once since silicone does not bond well to itself once it cures......this to me is the major obstacle in builing your own tank or resealing your own.
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The cooler it is in your basement the longer the working time you will have with the silicone. Good luck Steve. Are you using 10 oz. or 28 oz. tubes of silicone?
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Are you using 10 oz. or 28 oz. tubes of silicone?
The ones that fit in a caulk gun, I think they are around 10oz if I'm not mistaken.
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Are you using 10 oz. or 28 oz. tubes of silicone?
The ones that fit in a caulk gun, I think they are around 10oz if I'm not mistaken.
Hey Steve,
If it's cheaper to buy the larger tubes I have a large caulking gun you can borrow.
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Are you using 10 oz. or 28 oz. tubes of silicone?
The ones that fit in a caulk gun, I think they are around 10oz if I'm not mistaken.
As Tony noted, there are different size caulk guns (typically two sizes). Found this out when I was standing at HD one day, realized that the bigger ones were significantly cheaper for whatever product it was I'd been looking at, so I bought the big ones. Got home ... didn't fit in the gun I had, LOL. Gun was cheap to buy and I still came out ahead of buying the little ones. Now I'm set. :)
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Hey Ron I have a question for ya. I was just downstairs still scraping away at the tank and just sat down by the tank for a second to rest before heading up to bed for the night, and I noticed something that I have not noticed until just now. When I sat down and looked closely at the side pane of glass where the leak is coming from I just happened to notice that the right side pane is not 100% flush with the front & back panes like the left side pane is. It seems to be set "inward" by about a good 1/8" more than the other one is. So I started looking over the silicone butt seams on that right side pane and I actually found a tiny piece of plastic (almost like some sort of just tiny debris) sticking out of the silicone butt seam on that pane.
That right side pane is the one that is where the leak has been. So now I'm thinking, maybe at some point in time someone took that pane out and replaced it and just didn't do a good enough job maybe? If that's the case then would I be okay to remove that side pane of glass, clean and acetone the edges and reseal it back in properly then reseal the inner seal? Because if it is in fact just that pane and I can simple remove and reinstall just the one side pane of glass and not have to rebuild the whole tank then that may be the best news I've heard in this whole project.
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Just snapped a couple pics to show you what I mean.
This is the left (good) side. Nice and even like it should be....
(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1769/TyMqs9.jpg)
Then check this out. Right side (where I'm 99% sure it was leaking from on the bottom)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/2481/3PkznH.jpg)
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Most glass tanks I've seen aren't 100% flush on all edges. What matters is the seam between the panes that holds them together. If you look at it from the side, it should be clear. If it's hazy white, then the seam is most likely bad.
As for the plastic bit sticking out, I'm not sure what to think about that. Sure doesn't sound good, but you should be able to look at the seam through one of the panes and see if it actually stuck through far enough to cause a leak.
Are you using something with a cutting edge to remove the old silicone or something like a trowel or putty knife? Just curious because of the leftover shown on the inside corner of the interior seam. I've always used razorblades.
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The silicone that I can see ( the vertical butt seams) looks okay, but I can't see the bottom one due to the lower trim and that's where the leak was coming from so I'm thinking that is the one that has a small pin hole/leak.
I'm using a 5" flat razor scrapper, but I have only gone over part of the vertical seams with it so far so there's still some left over silicone that needs to be cleaned. Gotta hit Lowes today and get a new pack of blades though.
If it is in fact the lower butt seam on the side pane then is it possible to pull out just a side pane and reinstall it, or would I also have to take one of the front or back panes out to do the side pane since the side pane sits between the front & back (yet on top of the bottom pane).
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Another thing I was considering as well perhaps. This is along the lines of what Josh said the shop he called suggested. If it is just a small spot on the lower seal like it seems to be then I'm also wondering if a piece of something like acrylic angle or similar cut to fit flush up against that sides lower seam in a somewhat eurobrace style, obviously with silicone behind and on top of it such as in this simple sketch might do the trick without much work.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/8278/JYrZq2.jpg)
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I was wondering if or when you would question the bond of your panels. That is a tall tank. If the bond is bad it will shift the panel causing your best efforts to leak. Its possible before your ownership that it was stored outside where the silocone deteroiated. If you want to take precautionary action you can either tear the whole tank down or have some glass strips cut the same thickness to reinforce your the panels before resealing. The tank is glass? Use glass for glass or acrylic for acrylic. If this were my tank i would go to any lengths to make sure i did my best. Either way i hope the best on the job
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Deleted . Thanks for your input.
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Just an FYI. Just ordered a 3/4" x 3/4" x34" piece of acrylic. I am planning on cutting it down to 23 7/8 or there abouts and using it as a patch on top of the reseal of the inner seal. Somewhat a seal on top of a seal. I'm pretty sure this will work. If I'm wrong, well wouldn't be the first time. I'm will to bet this works though.
Anyway if it doesn't.....Blame Blair :P.....gotta blame someone lol