Michigan Cichlid Association

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 07:12:05 AM

Title: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 07:12:05 AM
Just tossing ideas around...

So, I am going to be making two custom stands for two 84x18 tanks.  There will be a sump/filter system under the tanks.

My #1 goal, other than holding the tank up, will be to fit as large of a sump system as I can in the stand.  When I start the filter system, I will create a new DIY thread.  I want as much extra water as possible.

Because these tanks are in my basement, heating the entire room isnt an option.  Its an unfinished wide open basement.

So, I was thinking... since I will be building a custom stand... why not heat the air under the stand.  This would heat the water in the sump and also the bottom of the tank.

That being said... I cant really figure a safe way to do this.  I just dont trust a space heater running all the time.  I also thought about a heat bulb/light... like what is used for reptiles and chickens.

It would be a neat idea if I could figure out how to do it.  Of course the stand would have to be fully enclosed.  I also think that moisture would be an issue because of this.

Main reason for this would be to cut the cost of heating... not sure either idea would cut costs.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: djlamonica on December 20, 2013, 07:17:50 AM
Why wouldn't you just put a large heater in the sump?
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 07:19:00 AM
Why wouldn't you just put a large heater in the sump?

That is what I am doing as of right now.  Likely have the same (3) 250watt heaters from my current tank in the sump.


I am just thinking out loud with this thread... nothing more.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: atmagoulick on December 20, 2013, 07:21:08 AM
Metal halide generates a lot of heat.  For example, a 175 watt bulb is as hot as an iron.  a 400 watt bulb is twice as hot as an iron.  The ballast for the bulb get hot also.  They could easily heat a small aquarium.  Sound like a fun project, just be careful.  Metal halide have been known to cause a fires.  I don't use heaters for South and Central American cichlids.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 07:23:02 AM
Yes, fire is my biggest fear.   The main reason I will probably not do anything like this. ???


Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: rcombs on December 20, 2013, 07:58:05 AM
humidity wont be an issue if you dry-loc stand. I would also still have a couple breather holes just so it would minimize the pooling of water inside the stand that drips down the sides. I would not enclose it completely.

A Large heater will work just fine. My buddy has a 180 gallon reef with a 75 gallon sump in his system. Works fine and keeps water at 81.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 08:02:54 AM
humidity wont be an issue if you dry-loc stand. I would also still have a couple breather holes just so it would minimize the pooling of water inside the stand that drips down the sides. I would not enclose it completely.

A Large heater will work just fine. My buddy has a 180 gallon reef with a 75 gallon sump in his system. Works fine and keeps water at 81.



I'm not worried about being able to heat the tank.  I do have to use more heaters than most as my basement is VERY cold in the winter.  I have 750watts of heaters in my 140 and in the same in my 150 gallon.  I dont like to use a single large heater... the thoughts of malfunctioning heaters freaks me out.  If one of my 250 watt malfunctions, it wont kill my fish.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: djlamonica on December 20, 2013, 08:10:30 AM
Metal halide generates a lot of heat.  For example, a 175 watt bulb is as hot as an iron.  a 400 watt bulb is twice as hot as an iron.  The ballast for the bulb get hot also.  They could easily heat a small aquarium.  Sound like a fun project, just be careful.  Metal halide have been known to cause a fires.  I don't use heaters for South and Central American cichlids.

This confuses me a lot of souths and centrals need much higher temps then old worlds. 
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: danielratti on December 20, 2013, 08:45:14 AM
Not to go off topic but 81 way to high for a reef tank 77.2 is ideal for coral and fish to do well. Then at night is the other issue without the light giving a heat source where will heat come from?
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 20, 2013, 09:21:53 AM
If the light was under the tank, it would be on all the time.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the standl
Post by: danielratti on December 20, 2013, 10:40:33 AM
Ok but bacterica grows best in the dark. So having that light on 24 hours a day little bacterica will grow. That'swhy the lights are ran in reverse with refugims
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: rcombs on December 20, 2013, 10:41:10 AM
Not to go off topic but 81 way to high for a reef tank 77.2 is ideal for coral and fish to do well. Then at night is the other issue without the light giving a heat source where will heat come from?

My reef thrived at 81. There is nothing wrong with 81. Corals grow awesome. Great color. its perfect. (7 Years in reef keeping). Check out this article. Reef is a 180, 75 gal sump, 3 radion LED lights.

http://www.ronshimek.com/salinity_temperature.html
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: Marty on December 20, 2013, 10:45:49 PM
I suspect the most efficient way to heat your tank would be a submersed heater as opposed to heating the air.  Make sure the top is sealed up as much as possible to prevent heat loss.  You could also put styrofoam underneath and behind the tank (if it's against the wall and you have a background) to cut down on heat loss.

I would think you could probably cut back on the amount of heaters/wattage you have as well.  I have two 500 watt heaters on my 400 gallon, and they're rarely both on at the same time.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 07:33:58 AM
Must be that my basement is colder than most.  I really dont heat it much.  With a pellet stove running on the main floor, the furnace hardly comes on... hardly any heat in the basement.  I would say it stays in the low 60s, at most.  I'll have to put a thermometer down there... now I am curious.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: Ron on December 21, 2013, 08:13:02 AM
100%, it's more effective to heat the tank than the air surrounding it in this case.

To save on energy, instead spend time cutting styrosheets to surround the outsides of the tanks and help cut energy loss. Also be sure that the lids are a tight fit and if not, try to improve those as well.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: Maize-N-Blue-D on December 21, 2013, 08:19:35 AM
100%, it's more effective to heat the tank than the air surrounding it in this case.

To save on energy, instead spend time cutting styrosheets to surround the outsides of the tanks and help cut energy loss. Also be sure that the lids are a tight fit and if not, try to improve those as well.

Ken, You have been to Josh's right,  he insulates his tanks,  ask him what he uses....I like the look of what Josh uses over plan Styrofoam...
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 08:19:42 AM
100%, it's more effective to heat the tank than the air surrounding it in this case.

To save on energy, instead spend time cutting styrosheets to surround the outsides of the tanks and help cut energy loss. Also be sure that the lids are a tight fit and if not, try to improve those as well.


Its funny, because I already know this and knew it didnt really make sense.  But for some reason I kept thinking about it.   ::)

The new tanks should be sealed up real good.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 08:20:40 AM
100%, it's more effective to heat the tank than the air surrounding it in this case.

To save on energy, instead spend time cutting styrosheets to surround the outsides of the tanks and help cut energy loss. Also be sure that the lids are a tight fit and if not, try to improve those as well.

Ken, You have been to Josh's right,  he insulates his tanks,  ask him what he uses....I like the look of what Josh uses over plan Styrofoam...

Yeah, I have seen it.  But for display tanks... not really the look I want to go for.  I will likely use it on the back and bottom though.


Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: danielratti on December 21, 2013, 09:02:42 AM
I think acrylic holds heat better then glass also.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 09:44:53 AM
I think acrylic holds heat better then glass also.

Plus, its an inch thick!

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: danielratti on December 21, 2013, 09:59:30 AM
Yeah then it should really hold heat well. Wow a inch that was.fun to move.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 10:06:44 AM
Yeah then it should really hold heat well. Wow a inch that was.fun to move.

Its a 42" tall tank.

I dont think it was ever fully picked up all the way.  Jeff helped me load it into my truck, one end at a time.  No way I could have loaded it alone. 
Unloading it, I backed my truck to the basement window (which I removed the entire window from the house) and slide it down boards into the basement.  Going to need 4 guys to lift it up onto the stand when I build it.

Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: danielratti on December 21, 2013, 10:33:49 AM
my back hurts thinking about it.
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: four_by_ken on December 21, 2013, 10:35:07 AM
my back hurts thinking about it.


A quote from a non fish owning buddy that helped me move a few tanks, including this one...

"Thats it.  I am never helping again.  They just keep getting bigger every time you get a new one."


Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: rcombs on December 21, 2013, 10:44:03 AM
my back hurts thinking about it.


A quote from a non fish owning buddy that helped me move a few tanks, including this one...

"Thats it.  I am never helping again.  They just keep getting bigger every time you get a new one."

LOL THATS FUNNY
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: LoveTheFishies on December 21, 2013, 11:01:55 PM
my back hurts thinking about it.


A quote from a non fish owning buddy that helped me move a few tanks, including this one...

"Thats it.  I am never helping again.  They just keep getting bigger every time you get a new one."

LOL THATS FUNNY

:)
Title: Re: Custom stand... heat inside the stand?
Post by: jcunningham0295 on December 22, 2013, 12:21:13 PM
my back hurts thinking about it.


A quote from a non fish owning buddy that helped me move a few tanks, including this one...

"Thats it.  I am never helping again.  They just keep getting bigger every time you get a new one."




lol, you must not have a fish wench like I do....  :)