Michigan Cichlid Association
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bmarine on September 25, 2013, 08:53:03 PM
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Lately i (and my parents) feel like i've been spending way too much money in this hobby. Now i realize that i'll always be spending, but it would be nice to gain a little money back from it too! So I'm really hoping to get bigger into breeding. I have 6 tanks to work with (i know thats not a ton, but if i can do any more breeding than i've already been doing, its a plus), and i'd like to breed fish that i know people/the LFS will take. So here's the tanks i have and my plans:
A 125-african show tank---hoping to maybe breed some synodontis in this though or plecos
55-thinking about breeding lemon jakes, but open to other ideas
29- hoping to breed in this too, but no idea what to breed
20, 10, 5-i'm thinking these will be fry tanks.
Now i've been looking at some fish and think these could be interesting ones to breed:
Angels
Rams
Something from the apistogramma genus
Peacock gudgeons
So are these good fish to breed? Would anyone take them if i bred them? Any other ideas on fish to breed or stock lists for the tanks?
I really appreciate your help! Sorry its kind of a long post too!
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Angelfish will almost always sell if you have a nice strain. They're also not too difficult to spawn once they get to breeding size. Rams and Apistogramma are both neat fish, but I don't know if they'd sell as well. A few other species that the stores will almost always buy are Nimbochromis venustus, Neolamprologus leluipi, and Electric Yellows.
If you breed peacocks, you may find that stores will only want colored males.
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Okay so angels are a big one! I know my LFS breeds their own leleupi in the back room, and they told me they won't take them from customers, and i've thought about venustus, but the only way i could do that is my 125, and i already have a few different species in there. And yeah i'm pretty sure my LFS doesnt have any apistos, so i wasnt sure if they would be one that they would definitely take. Thry do have lots of rams though! What about the gudgeons? Any other good fish? I'm open to any ideas!
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personally, if i were going to breed rams i would have to go with something bright. i would suggest electric blue rams or gold veil angel rams
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I don't believe they have electric blues! So they are an idea! Could i breed angels and rams or apistos in the same tank?
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I don't want to discourage you but the best you'll probably do is break even on say your electric bill. Or possibly pay for the cost of raising the fry. At least with the number of tanks you have now.
Do it for fun...if you need cash sell a tank or two vs try to breed...just my two cents.
If you do breed you need species tanks...eg angel pair in a 29 high, 20 high for rams.
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Yeah, i know i won't get even close to breaking even. Part of its trying to increase my experience with fish (i've done african cichlids almost the whole time i've been in the hobby), and maybe try just to get a little more money towards the hobby. I'm a teen so i don't pay electric bills quite yet, Although i should try to chip in with how much i use! Basically i'm just hoping to breed more, and get some more money from breeding than i am currently, but i want to breed exciting fish, not the common ones like guppies or platies.
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I wouldn't suggest trying to breed them in the same tank
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K i figured. Aggression issues probably?? My 55 is also kind of a show tank, so could i actually get some other fish in there with angels?
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Breed some bristlenose in the smaller tanks and probably put some fry in there too. People use bristlenose across many set-ups. They help pay some of expenses and are pretty easy.
Maybe just use the 125 as a show tank and use the other tanks for breeding.
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Yeah i'd be worried about aggression. a lot of angels will kill the rest of the group after a pair is formed so they could be aggressive towards other fish after they form a pair. i second the bristlenose pleco idea, they really cut down on algae scrubbing, breed regularly, and look cool.
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Breed some bristlenose in the smaller tanks and probably put some fry in there too. People use bristlenose across many set-ups. They help pay some of expenses and are pretty easy.
Maybe just use the 125 as a show tank and use the other tanks for breeding.
I agree
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K i could do plecs! I would assume the LFS would take them cuz everyone needs them! What could i breed those in? Do they need their own tank? And what if i bought a breeding pair of angels, and then put them with some schooling fish and maybe cories or something?
Oh and yeah the 125 is mostly for show, i just figured i was gonna have synos anyway for it and maybe i'd get lucky and they'd breed!
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You could put a group of synodontis petricola or multipunctatus in the 125 and see how it goes. You could do a pair of plecos in each of the tanks except the 10 and the 5 and use those for fry growout. With the angels you could probably get away with doing a breeding group of cory cats or a pair of plecos or maybe even both. Schooling fish could do well with the angels, not 100% sure, but as long as they're a faster moving fish like tetras I don't see a problem. You may even be able to get them to breed in there. In the 55 i would suggest a smaller group of haps, mbuna or peacocks. Lemon Jakes should be fine but they can get aggressive
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IMO, if you're serious about breeding egg layers do species only tanks. Cories love eggs and tetras do to a certain extent...so either do a show tank or a breeding tank...hard to mix the two. ;)
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I.
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k So do rasboras or danios like eggs too? Is there anything I could possibly breed in a 55 without it being like a species only or just a pair of fish?
I'm willing to do a species only in the 29 though or even the 20 if I don't use that for a fry tank, so probably angels or rams for that? I'm hoping to go talk to my LFS this weekend too and see if they have any ideas on fish so I can learn what they would take!
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k So do rasboras or danios like eggs too? Is there anything I could possibly breed in a 55 without it being like a species only or just a pair of fish?
I'm willing to do a species only in the 29 though or even the 20 if I don't use that for a fry tank, so probably angels or rams for that? I'm hoping to go talk to my LFS this weekend too and see if they have any ideas on fish so I can learn what they would take!
I wasn't saying you can't put more fish in the 55...just that the more fish you add the chances of fry surviving go down, e.g. plecos if hungry will eat angelfish or ram eggs, etc. Or if the parents get stressed rams and apistos will eat their own eggs.
You may want to leave the 55g for growout.
I'd set up a 20 long or even a 20 high for breeding some plecos. Height is mostly wasted on many plecos as they like to stay near the substrate/decor/pots/hiding spots, so a 20 long is better vs. a 20 high in this regard. Plus it leaves room for you to keep the baby plecos in with the adults; the adults generally don't eat their own fry but they need room to spread out a little after the fry leave the cave.
Then put a pair of angels in a 20/29 high (just them), or a pair of rams in a 15 long/20 high (just them). Give the parents 3-4 times to raise the fry and if they keep eating the eggs, then try to train them to lay on a piece of slate or decoration and pull the slate covered in eggs (don't expose to air for more than a few seconds), put the eggs in another small (5-10g) tank w/ cycled filter and some meth blue (to prevent fungus) plus a bubbler (for good air circulation).
Once the babies, hatch, use progressively a 10g > 20g > 55g for growout on the angel fry or ram fry. They need plenty of space or they get deformed fins or weird looking bodies. E.g. 10g/angelfish by the time they are breeder size, and a gallon each wouldn't hurt when they're fry...cuts down on water change frequency as well. Rams need somewhat less space compared to angels but more space is better than not enough.
This was my point about just raising fry you need lots of tanks, e.g. 20g or 29g for the parents, then 10g + 20g long + 55g for various stages of fry, plus 2 liter bottles for a brine shrimp hatchery (or some smaller tanks), etc, etc. So breeding is possible but to do it well (good for the quality of fish + less headache for you) you need probably a minimum of 3-4 tanks just for that one species. Also, you may have to mess with softening the water or adjusting PH a little bit to get the eggs to hatch at a good percentage, e.g. mixing some RO water with the aged and dechlorinated tap water. This is more true of wild-caught vs. tank raised parents. Tank raised are easier and less fussy about water hardness, but they also usually eat their eggs...some of the parenting instincts seem to be bred out of them.
See here for more info: http://greatlakesaquaria.com/index.php?/topic/3078-angel-fry-are-growing/ Pauline perhaps goes overboard (in a good way) with water changes and all that, but she turns out beautiful fish and starts with great parents. You could get away with less frequent WCs, but you also run the risk of stunting/poor finnage on the angels if you wait too long between WCs or use too small a tank to raise the fry. And there's enough poor quality angelfish showing up in stores, so why add to that? Better not to raise them (except for the experience) than to raise junk.
Now, in contrast, you can do African cichlids with just a show tank (with less rocks, or PVC, or no heavy so you can catch the females) where you catch the females holding fry in their mouths, strip the fry, put the fry in a breeder box on the show tank until they get a little bigger, then grow them out in a 20 long and/or a 40-55g long as they get bigger. So you could get away with maybe one or two less tanks. But it's still a good bit of work with regular water changes and daily or twice daily feedings and all that. Africans do tend to do better in our Michigan water though, so it's a bit easier in that regard vs. angelfish.
If you go with Africans, I think you could go with smaller mbuna in a 55, up to 3 species, e.g. 1M 3F yellow labs, 1M 3F rusty cichlids, 1M 3F acei...just pick three species that won't hybridize. RegalBlue and auratus and a bunch of others on here would be great sources in helping you pick some good species.
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Yeah, i know i won't get even close to breaking even. Part of its trying to increase my experience with fish (i've done african cichlids almost the whole time i've been in the hobby), and maybe try just to get a little more money towards the hobby. I'm a teen so i don't pay electric bills quite yet, Although i should try to chip in with how much i use! Basically i'm just hoping to breed more, and get some more money from breeding than i am currently, but i want to breed exciting fish, not the common ones like guppies or platies.
For sure you won't break even, but it is fun trying to breed new species. If I were you, I wouldn't breed venustus. They are hard to get rid of. I have a couple lfs that taker them from time to time, but hard fish to sell. I usually have over 100 of them at a time.
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Yeah, i know i won't get even close to breaking even. Part of its trying to increase my experience with fish (i've done african cichlids almost the whole time i've been in the hobby), and maybe try just to get a little more money towards the hobby. I'm a teen so i don't pay electric bills quite yet, Although i should try to chip in with how much i use! Basically i'm just hoping to breed more, and get some more money from breeding than i am currently, but i want to breed exciting fish, not the common ones like guppies or platies.
For sure you won't break even, but it is fun trying to breed new species. If I were you, I wouldn't breed venustus. They are hard to get rid of. I have a couple lfs that taker them from time to time, but hard fish to sell. I usually have over 100 of them at a time.
^ This is one of _the_ guys to talk to about breeding. He knows what he's talking about...several thousand gallons of Africans. :) Great setup, btw.
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I have some lansticola which are my avatar you could do in a 55. Not a species seen too often that I know of.
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Well they are a possibility! I'm just trying to find a good ratio of a beautiful tank full of action and being able to breed in it too. So for the 29 gallon, should i do rams, apistos, angels or something else? And jcunningham, i think i saw a youtube video of your fish room, and it is pretty amazing!
And also, the 20 gallon i have is a 20 gallon high, if that helps at all.
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I'd go with angels in the 29, rams in the 20, 10 and 5 for growout, and the 55 for a nice african or south american group. You may have to add a couple more growout tanks
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That sounds like a pretty good idea to me! And i do have a possibility of getting a 15 gallon tall if i need it. Hopefully i can also get to the LFS this weekend and see what fish are good for me to breed that they'll take!
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If it were me, in the 55 I'd go for Lemon Jakes, Ruby Reds, or Benga Sunshine. In the 29 I'd go for Koi or Turquoise angels. In the 20 I'd go for electric blue or gold veil angel rams. Use the 15 10 and 5 for growout, and in the biggest tank, I'd go for just a show tank with maybe a pair of plecos or a group of synos
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15 is not big enough for growout IMO - you'll need the 40 long/55 for growout if you're serious about raising the angels big enough to a size most LFS will accept without stunting their growth. But it's up to you.
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Sounds pretty sweet to me! Now the 55 is a species tank right? And should i maybe find a different peacock/smaller hap that the LFS would want both the male and female to? And i'm still not completely sure of rams because the apistos really interest me yet, so i'll ask the LFS what they would rather have!
And i'll see about the angels then, i dont want to hurt the fish!
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I would shoot for species only in the 55. Peacocks crossbreed too easily. If you wanted something that the lfs will want both males and females of, i can't think of a single hap or peacock that has females that aren't gray. If you wanted a fish that had good looking males and females i would go for a mbuna. saulosi would probably be my choice. Meant fry tank for the 15 not growout. In the end what would be best would be to get another 55 or similar size like linuxrulesusa said for growout, or you'll have to sell fry before they reach sexable size and the lfs may not want them because you can't pick out the males
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K so how bout this. I try breeding synos in the 125, then could i breed like lemon jakes and bn plecos in the 55, and maybe apistos/rams in either the 15 or 20 if i can, and use the 5 and 10 for fry and the 29 for a growout?
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Sounds good to me. Shoot for the 20 for the pair of rams, but other than that it sounds good to me
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Sweet! I think i might do that then! Does that sound good to everyone else? Any revisions i should make?
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You need to realize once you flood a area with a species of fish there will no longer be a demand for said species in that area.
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You need to realize once you flood a area with a species of fish there will no longer be a demand for said species in that area.
I agree.
I say bred something that is hard to find.. not necessarily rare just not as common to come by.
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You need to realize once you flood a area with a species of fish there will no longer be a demand for said species in that area.
I would agree, with the possible exception of staple fish that appeal to more than just hobbyists but to the general public as well. IMO angelfish and plecos both fall into this category of appealing to hobbyists and your average 10 year old walking into a fish store, as an example.
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Yeah i understand. What i'll probably do then is start out with a few species, then change it up a little later and start with something new again! That way i'll still be breeding and getting a little bit of income, while getting more experience with different kinds of fish and learning more about the hobby! Does that sound about right or is there another solution?
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Yeah i understand. What i'll probably do then is start out with a few species, then change it up a little later and start with something new again! That way i'll still be breeding and getting a little bit of income, while getting more experience with different kinds of fish and learning more about the hobby! Does that sound about right or is there another solution?
Another solution to being addicted to fish, or to spending less money, or both? ;)
I think you're on the right track.
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Haha okay thanks! And there is no other solution for being addicted to fish!
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I tried breeding angel fish but my water is to hard and the parents are stupid and they eat their eggs almost every time. One good pair could throw lots of fry a month.
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Gotcha. So kinda just a luck of the draw thing with them?