Michigan Cichlid Association
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on June 05, 2013, 08:36:17 PM
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Question about leveling big tanks. Now that the office is about done I'm starting on working in the tank this evening. So first thing was to fill it about 1/3 full just to clean all the grime out of it. In doing this I noticed it is a bit unlevel. This is a 7ft long 265g tank on a very sturdy wood stand (you could sit a car on this stand) and it is off by about 1" over the 7ft span. The reason is the concrete floor in the basement is 50yrs old so it is not perfectly level.
I was thinking of shimming it but I'm wondering if it would be safer to not shim it. Because the stand has 7ft lengths of of 2"x6"x7ft wood running the length of the stand, so if I shimmed it it would be hard to shim without putting pressure points into it. So I'm thinking maybe it is best to not shim it. I've been searching online and found everything from people saying long tanks are fine being out of level 1" to people saying it's a big problem.
Any feedback from you guys on this one please?
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I used shims on my 400 gallon.
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How far apart did you space the shims Marty? I just want to make sure I don;t throw in any sort of pressure point at all or have a part of the stand unsupported by improperly shimming it since I have never done it before.
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For my 6' 125 and for my 180 replacing it, the floor drops a half inch where the tank sits. I put a piece of 1/2" plywood under the low side that was roughly 6" wide. I built my stand though and the main supports are in the corners I thought about putting shims under the middle supports but never did for the 125, I may for the 180. I would definitely level it though.
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Here is a pic of the back of it so you can see how the stand is built. So if I was to shim the one end of it about 1"....what would I do with the rest of the stand such as in the middle because then that would be unsupported and off the ground. Would I just have to buy a ton of shims and shim it every few inches? :o Also what type of shims would be best because this will be around 2500lbs when filled with water & rock.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8454/standsz.jpg)
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I would take a piece of wood and have a graduated shim traveling the length of the gap. So if at the center you have a 1/8" gap, and at the end you have 5/8", measure the distance, mark a piece of 2x4" with a chalk line for the graduated angle, and cut a piece to custom fit.
If you don't trust that, you could always go to a steel supply shop and get a bunch of metal shims (like what you would put underneath I- beam stanchions to stick underneath the entire length.
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Better to level the tank so there is no extra side pressures on the tank. I use 6" composite shims and planks to level my tanks. They are waterproof and do not compress under pressure. Level the tank at the four corners and shim under all the vertical pillars and you should be good. I have double stacked 120's that only have 5 legs contacting the ground. They have been set up that way over ten years.
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Thanks guys I appreciate the info. This is one of those "WTH was I thinking things" because I didn't even think to check for levelness until it was all built into the wall and such....duh duh friggin DUH I amaze myself sometimes :o :o :-\
I was just down there and removed some nails/screws and supports from the wall and stuck a jack under the one end of the stand and was able to get it raised a good .500-.625 without damaging the wall or having to to too much tear down. Still need to find another .500 worth of room in it though. Probably going to try making some long tapered wood shims tomorrow and see how it goes.
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home depot sells bundle of contractor shims or door shims for pretty cheap. if you want to avoid excess pressure in certain areas i would level corners as needed then insert shims at intervals down the length of your bottom. then all you have to do is snap off the excess shim that sticks out. the weight will be distributed well enough to avoid any sagging or twisting in the stand.
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We just build a 250 from the stand to the tank and we shimmed every 2 inches and it worked out pretty well. You don't need anything too fancy. We had a 300 we moved and set back up in the guys new place and needed to use 2x4's to shim up one end of the tank.
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home depot sells bundle of contractor shims or door shims for pretty cheap. if you want to avoid excess pressure in certain areas i would level corners as needed then insert shims at intervals down the length of your bottom. then all you have to do is snap off the excess shim that sticks out. the weight will be distributed well enough to avoid any sagging or twisting in the stand.
x2. That's what I've done in some cases.
Another option is to build a level floor atop the concrete floor. My "fishroom" was/is a bedroom built in the basement. To help retain heat it was built with a ~1/2"-3/4" floor overtop the concrete that not only insulates, but helped level that particular room.
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Going to head to Lowes in a bit to pick up a few packs of shims/wedges. Okay here is where I am at today guys, I'd like you're thoughts on this now. I jacked up the low end of the tank and it ended up taking a 2x4 under the low end to get it level. Now with the one end of the tank shimmed up about 1.5" it sits pretty level from one end to the other with maybe about 1/8"- 3/16" difference over the 7ft span. That should be well in the range correct?
The other thing is now that it is leveled side to side it is maybe 3/16" - 1/4" off over the 2ft width front to back. But it is off exactly the same on each side front to back which tells me it is not tweeked at all. I really don't want to go messing with trying to shim the front to back and mess up the fact that it is currently not tweeked/twisted at all so would I be good now just to get the shims and brace up under the bottom of the stand now without trying to mess with how it sits any more than I already have?
Here is a pic so you can see how off the floor was >:(
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8766/standi.jpg)
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I almost hate to ask, but how does this play into the wall opening you made for the tank?
If you have access to a table saw, you might be able to shave additional 2x4s to help shim the bottom.
The end to end difference you've found after leveling isn't a big deal. I feel like almost all of my larger tanks end up with some tiny level of difference. Front to back, 1/4" doesn't seem like a big deal, but starting to go over that raises my concern a bit. If you haven't yet, you should get some sheets of closed-cell foam to set the tank on. This will allow the tank to "self-level" a bit and help your numbers even more.
Leveling a tank is certainly important, but even more important is supporting the bottom (edges on a glass tank - entire bottom on an acrylic tank) evenly IMO. Torsion will much more easily compromise seams.
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I almost hate to ask, but how does this play into the wall opening you made for the tank?
Actually it made it fit better. When I did the opening in the wall I based it on the floor being level across so the tank actually sat 1" off inside the wall itself (now I know why lol). So now that I raised the left side it actually fits much nicer in the wall and wont take anywhere near the size trim to hide the edge, so that worked out for a positive luckily ;D
It's for sure no more than 1/4" front to back, probably closer to 3/16" actually. It sits nice and flat on the stand. The whole top of the stand is flat and the tank sit's really well and evenly on it so I think I am good for not having any twist right now. Been looking at shims and the wood door jam shims kind'a scare me for durability over time with this much weight (probably be fine but I'm a bit OCD lol) so I checked out the Composite ones someone mentioned and those say they hold 16,000 of weight so I think I am gonna go buy about 6 packs of those to use.
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i would shoot for no more than 1/64" when leveling. (j/k) when leveling multiple directions i find the tinker and test method to work the best, if you know anyone that works in a fabrication shop or metal shop they'll almost definitely have metal shims if the door shims scare you. they'll also be more accurate. if you dont know anyone in that line of work PM me. i'll help you out. im in wixom.
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I just got home with 10 packs of the composite shims so I should be good. Gonna go work on it right now. Thanks for the offer though.
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Well I gotta say, I NEVER thought leveling a tank, even a big tank like this, could be such a pain in the butt. I'm getting there but still not done, had to quit for tonight though it's just causing me too much stress this evening and it hasn't been the best of evenings to begin with :-\
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You'll get it, just be patient & take your time to do it right. Better to do it correctly, than to have a seam break loose.
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It's drivin me nuts Blair I tell ya. I put a small amount of water in it just so I can measure the level and it is -
LF.. 2-3/4"
RF.. 3"
LR.. 2-1/2"
RR.. 2-7/16
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Did you level the stand first? (Sorry, I'm not reading through the thread right now)
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Those measurements are after l spent 3 hours screwin' with trying to level the stand tonight. Before I started leveling it it was about 1.5" off on the one side and tilted about 1/2" to the front (it's the darn basement floor). So its "better" but I dunno know if I'm gonna be able to get it much better. Then again after messing with that thing for 3 hrs, having a company charge me for a defective product they sent me (not fish related) and having an order from a customer cancelled because he changed his mind 3 days after telling me to start the project....it hasn't been a good night so I'm not in the most positive of moods about ANYTHING at the moment ;D
Nights like this almost make me wish I never gave up drinkin' :o
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i would shoot for no more than 1/64" when leveling. (j/k) when leveling multiple directions i find the tinker and test method to work the best, if you know anyone that works in a fabrication shop or metal shop they'll almost definitely have metal shims if the door shims scare you. they'll also be more accurate. if you dont know anyone in that line of work PM me. i'll help you out. im in wixom.
IMHO I agree. When I leveled my 6' tank I was real anal and made custom "Full Depth" shims with my table saw to evenly distribute the load. Personally, it would drive me nuts to have it over 1/64 or so out of level.
Good Luck !!! :D
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Well today's a new day and a bit better I guess. I got up early to give it another shot at leveling this sucker. I finally have it where it is 3/16" -1/4" off over the 7ft length, which I don't think it bad. Plus it is sitting flat and not torqued at all which was my main concern. Actually filled it about 3/4 way up (around 180/190g worth) and nothing moved, no weird creaks or scary things happened lol...besides the fact it took over and hour just to fill 3/4 of it :o
So I think I'm gonna be good to go now. Thanks for the advice and tips on the composite shims and such much appreciated.
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I'd recommend using foam insulation board that's 1" thick & then IMO You're good.
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I'd recommend using foam insulation board that's 1" thick & then IMO You're good.
Where would you put the foam? In between the stand and floor or stand and tank?
Just wondering because my brother is going to make a custom stand for me later this summer or fall. He is a custom carpenter and my house is newer so I don't think there will be a big problem with the floor being level, but I want to be safe.
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Where would you put the foam? In between the stand and floor or stand and tank?
Just wondering because my brother is going to make a custom stand for me later this summer or fall. He is a custom carpenter and my house is newer so I don't think there will be a big problem with the floor being level, but I want to be safe.
Between the tank and the stand. Since you're having a custom stand made, you can also account for the added thickness of the foam when considering the height for the trim on the stand to insure it hides both the foam and the tank trim (presuming that you're looking for a "fully finished" look).
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Where would you put the foam? In between the stand and floor or stand and tank?
Just wondering because my brother is going to make a custom stand for me later this summer or fall. He is a custom carpenter and my house is newer so I don't think there will be a big problem with the floor being level, but I want to be safe.
Between the tank and the stand. Since you're having a custom stand made, you can also account for the added thickness of the foam when considering the height for the trim on the stand to insure it hides both the foam and the tank trim (presuming that you're looking for a "fully finished" look).
Yes, I want it so you just see the nice wood on all sides, not the plastic frame.
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I don't really see what the need for the foam would be though since the tank sits perfectly flat on the stand? I went all the way around the tank with a piece of envelope paper making sure there were no gaps at all and there weren't any I could even get the paper to slide under. I could see if maybe there where a few high spots or something where a foam pad might help, but since it sits perfectly flat do I really want to add something if it is not needed?
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Every fish room I have visited uses some sort of foam under all of their tanks. The foam acts as a buffer so to speak against any unlevel surface, the tank has some give to it before any damage occurs. With no foam the tank would eventually crack, break or explode if ever in an unlevel situation...
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I'd recommend using foam insulation board that's 1" thick & then IMO You're good.
Is 1" foam the same size for all bigger tanks? What type of foam? Where do you get it?
I seem to remember mention of someone getting foam from a place on Hall road.
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Every fish room I have visited uses some sort of foam under all of their tanks. The foam acts as a buffer so to speak against any unlevel surface, the tank has some give to it before any damage occurs. With no foam the tank would eventually crack, break or explode if ever in an unlevel situation...
I guess that is why I am not seeing how foam could be useful if the tank is sitting perfectly flat where you can't even get a piece of paper under it. I could see maybe if there were some small gaps (although I personally doubt foam is gonna be of any help under 2500lbs of weight) but with my tank sitting as flat as it is on the flat top stand...it almost seems like trying to put foam under it (which would be a big job in and of itself since my tank weighs 455lbs empty) would be kind'a pointless since it sits flat as can be already with no twist.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you are wrong by any means, I'm just trying to see what the logic in it is when its flat to start because it would be a pretty big pain for me to do alone, plus I already have the stand leveled so if I move the tank it's gonna unlevel all I worked to level so I'm just tryin to see if there is a "need" for me to do it, or if its just something people do because others have done it when their tank is not flat on the stand to start with.
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The purpose of the foam is to protect the tank, it is not to level the tank. I am not an expert by no means and the guys here on the MCA know much more than I. So when I see their set ups and ask why they are doing something, I usually heed to their experience and follow their advice....
I have learned so much since joining the MCA so I must defer to their knowledge of why you should do something...I just say thank you for being kind enough to share their knowledge...
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The foam will buffer the unevenness. Gravity&weight will eventually make the tank sink, into the foam, where it needs to be.